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Thread: Plug/Rosette welds

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by bandaids View Post
    I'll have to try C25 sometime, but for now, it's 100 co2. The high settings could be the length of the extension cable 20' that I'm using and causing a vdrop.

    I don't know how accurate my flowmeter is compared to the dual gauge regulator but changed from ~20 cfh to 15-18 cfh.

    I'll have to get the torch in closer since most of the welds were done probably 1/2 to 3/4 inch away from the material. That's probably the reason for the cratering and in the first few samples, also I had a fan 10' away somewhat blowing in the direction. I definitely need 2.0/2.5 cheater glasses.

    I never tig welded and have the torch and fittings but no tungsten, one reason I want to try c25 later. I hear it's much easier than MIG.

    The main reason for posting is for experienced welders to provide me with information on my technique. Thanks. These photos are the first welds that I have completed in the thirty years since I have last picked up a torch. Still learning the techniques. What I would like to see is a perfect string of laps around the perimeter of the hole and a pool in the center. It's somewhat difficult with hand tremors, lol.

    I-Car/AWS has some pretty useful information that I've been reading up on and a few Youtube channels like Fitzee's Fabrications and Bad Chad Customs.
    OK, I'm learning something here. I didn't even know what C25 was even though that's what I've been using for 50 years. I've never tried anything else and I just read that C25 is not a gas mixture for TIG welding because the CO2 is not an inert gas and won't remove all the atmosphere from the process.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Len View Post
    OK, I'm learning something here. I didn't even know what C25 was even though that's what I've been using for 50 years. I've never tried anything else and I just read that C25 is not a gas mixture for TIG welding because the CO2 is not an inert gas and won't remove all the atmosphere from the process.
    You are right. I was thinking Argon, but C25 is mix.

  3. #18
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    You need to turn your gas up and possibly your heat down, try setting the regulator to somewhere around 35-38 psi if you continue too have this amount of splatter. If you are outside and have the least amount of wind turn your pressure up as that is a huge amount of splatter and dimpling. Get your fan off the welding area gas flow and block any wind from your weld. Next, make sure your tip and nozzle are clean, welding at a 45-90 degree angle with no more than a 1/2" out of your stinger. I am not a fan of mig welding with straight CO2 but it is a decent gas to weld with. All my mig welders are set up with C25 75/25. For plug welding I can use either .23 or .030, I am not picky as I know how to quickly adjust my machine. I prefer to start plug welds in the middle as it helps to heat up both pieces prior to outer lip contact with weldment. As you have obviously Youtube'd welding, you know to listen for the bacon fry sound that is smooth and consistent. One pointer that may help, try preheating your weld area and watch and listen for the difference. If you have too much heat your going to burn away your stinger quickly, too low and it will push back and have no penetration. Your current penetration is good, maybe a tad too much heat. In the end you just need to practice. Showing all your voltage settings means next to nothing as every machine and their settings will weld different. You should have a chart on your machine that shows gauge thickness, wire mil and gas flow. These are starting points only, adjust them as needed.

  4. #19
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    This sample coupon was painted with rustoleum zinc on a single side of each coupon.

    The top row at 83A, 18.7(22.7)+10V and penetration on the back side, BUT... I forgot to lay the zinc painted side face down with both painted sides facing each together. So, the plate on the bottom had zinc facing up, and the plate on top with the holes had zinc facing up. The top row welded fine and had little spatter. I left the exposed holes with zinc rather than cleaning to bare metal with a cut-off 3/16 bit. I decided to remove the zinc coating on the top plate. Then started a new weld on the second row (far right) single weld and cooked the top metal and spattered it like crazy. I lowered the voltages on rows three and four from 83A, 18.7(22.7)+10V to +5 to +0 bringing the voltages between 17V to 19V. Then removed the zinc between the holes on row two (first two welds) and row three far-right single weld. I set to 83A, 18.7(16.3)-6V and very little spatter. The zinc paint clearly had an effect as opposed to the rust-stop, not sure why having zinc on the top plate facing up would have such a difference. I'll make another sample coupon with zinc and attempt it again with my original thought, both zinc coatings FACING EACH OTHER. lol.

    the nozzle was roughly 1/4 away from the material.





  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by bandaids View Post
    This sample coupon was painted with rustoleum zinc on a single side of each coupon.

    The top row at 83A, 18.7(22.7)+10V and penetration on the back side, BUT... I forgot to lay the zinc painted side face down with both painted sides facing each together. So, the plate on the bottom had zinc facing up, and the plate on top with the holes had zinc facing up. The top row welded fine and had little spatter. I left the exposed holes with zinc rather than cleaning to bare metal with a cut-off 3/16 bit. I decided to remove the zinc coating on the top plate. Then started a new weld on the second row (far right) single weld and cooked the top metal and spattered it like crazy. I lowered the voltages on rows three and four from 83A, 18.7(22.7)+10V to +5 to +0 bringing the voltages between 17V to 19V. Then removed the zinc between the holes on row two (first two welds) and row three far-right single weld. I set to 83A, 18.7(16.3)-6V and very little spatter. The zinc paint clearly had an effect as opposed to the rust-stop, not sure why having zinc on the top plate facing up would have such a difference. I'll make another sample coupon with zinc and attempt it again with my original thought, both zinc coatings FACING EACH OTHER. lol.

    the nozzle was roughly 1/4 away from the material.
    There probably isn't any one right way to do these, but here is how I go about it.

    On the bottom of a rocker patch panel:
    I usually air punch (pictured) the holes, a little closer than factory.
    Clean the surfaces to bare shinny metal
    Spray Weld Through Primer spots around the punched holes on both the replacement rocker and backing plate
    023 wire, about 22 regulator setting, Tap #2 on my Hobart Handler 190
    I have a 10 gauge copper home made extension that I made back in the 90s...
    clamp it down tight
    I start on the edge, go around and end in the middle - one shot, one motion, gun almost perpendicular to the panel.
    I skip over a few holes, and do another, and skip around... when half are done I let it cool off
    Once its cool, repeat until done
    Add paintable seam sealer, paint, then coat the inside with cavity wax or fluid film.

    Notes:
    If I'm outside, I increase the regulator setting until I'm sure I've got good shielding
    I wouldn't use a fan pointed at the work, it tends to sweep away the shielding gas
    I've bought cheap weld through primer that just doesn't weld too easy, that stuff went in the trash can
    Sometimes the backside panel I'm welding to might be a little thin, then I'll clamp it in with the plug weld clamp (pictured) so I don't blow through
    If I need to dress the plug (some might be standing a little high if I moved too slowly), I'll use a 10k cut off wheel and nibble off the excess - careful not to hit sheet metal.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  6. #21
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    I have that punch tool, well at least the one I have punches 1/8 holes, way too small for my application. The backer is nice and have the same one but I have yet to order a bronze/copper rod.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by bandaids View Post
    I have that punch tool, well at least the one I have punches 1/8 holes, way too small for my application. The backer is nice and have the same one but I have yet to order a bronze/copper rod.
    I've never seen one that punches holes that small. They can be had up to 5/16 hole. I've had mine for a long time, I don't remember the size - but its not 5/16, probably about 3/16. I find that hole size big enough to fuse a spot that is about the same size as a factory spot weld. Its tempting to just buy a spot welder... but at some point there is only so much budget and storage room for tools.

    Lately I've been contemplating moving from welding to panel adhesive for areas I would usually plug weld (pinched areas like rocker bottoms and attaching quarters to wheel houses). I typically butt weld everything other than pinch welded areas, but one could employ adhesives with backer strips for the areas as well. Likely I'll try it on some bed sides and rockers that have been on the todo list for a couple months now.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Len View Post
    OK, I'm learning something here. I didn't even know what C25 was even though that's what I've been using for 50 years. I've never tried anything else and I just read that C25 is not a gas mixture for TIG welding because the CO2 is not an inert gas and won't remove all the atmosphere from the process.
    we always called c25 "steel mix" maybe a regional thing. straight argon for tig, or argon helium mix if you need more heat on you aluminum welding. never too old to learn right? that's why i try to hang around people smarter than i am. always learning.
    b marler

  9. #24
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    any time you add a coating to the metal, (like zinc or any other weld primer) it will effect the weld characteristics. either it mixes with the shielding gas as it vaporizes, or it insulates the surface of the metal and affects the arc formation. you need to adjust your machine or technique as needed. ideally, you want the wire to vaporize just before it touches the puddle. if the wire speed is too high and the wire hits the puddle you get spatter. if your too slow it will vaporize too far away, or just pop, pop, pop and there won't be good metal transfer, and you'll get burn back to the tip. prepping the metal before welding will help too. removing the mill scale makes for more consistent starts, as does clipping the wire end each time so you start with clean wire on clean metal.
    i use a punch for the holes too, but mine is a manual type. i have an assortment of sizes from 1/16 to 1/2. clamp the pieces together. those vice grip clamps with the u shape working end are good for this process.
    i usually weld mine like i'm making an o shape, and move the the center at the last move. maybe like a capital G. if i'm doing smaller sizes i'll just point directly at the center and not move, just pull the trigger and wait for it to wet out.
    oh, and quit watching those shows. they usually focus on things that don't really matter, and skip over the things that do matter. you'll get a lot more out of being in the shop and actually doing it.
    b marler

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmarler View Post
    any time you add a coating to the metal, (like zinc or any other weld primer) it will effect the weld characteristics. either it mixes with the shielding gas as it vaporizes, or it insulates the surface of the metal and affects the arc formation. you need to adjust your machine or technique as needed. ideally, you want the wire to vaporize just before it touches the puddle. if the wire speed is too high and the wire hits the puddle you get spatter. if your too slow it will vaporize too far away, or just pop, pop, pop and there won't be good metal transfer, and you'll get burn back to the tip. prepping the metal before welding will help too. removing the mill scale makes for more consistent starts, as does clipping the wire end each time so you start with clean wire on clean metal.
    i use a punch for the holes too, but mine is a manual type. i have an assortment of sizes from 1/16 to 1/2. clamp the pieces together. those vice grip clamps with the u shape working end are good for this process.
    i usually weld mine like i'm making an o shape, and move the the center at the last move. maybe like a capital G. if i'm doing smaller sizes i'll just point directly at the center and not move, just pull the trigger and wait for it to wet out.
    oh, and quit watching those shows. they usually focus on things that don't really matter, and skip over the things that do matter. you'll get a lot more out of being in the shop and actually doing it.
    I am no chemical engineer but I find it interesting that the weld pools up, pops, and burns through when there is no zinc on the top-facing coupon and yet it was okay when the zinc was left untouched on the top face while using the exact settings and technique. I've had good results using rust-stop so far. Either way, I find this fun but can only do it 3-4 hours a day or I start having physical complications with my back and may not get out to the garage a day or two later.


    I'm going off AWS/I-Car and other autobody websites for plug weld holes. 3/8, 5/16.
    https://app.aws.org/forum/topic_show.pl?tid=7941
    Per AWS D1.1

    The minimum diameter of the hole for the plug shall be no less than the thickness of the part containing it plus 5/16(8mm) preferably rounded to the next greater odd 1/16". The maximum width shall equal the minimum width plus 1/8"(3mm) or 2-1/4 times the thickness of the member,which ever is greater.

    For slotted holes it is the same as above except the length of the slot shall not exceed 10 times the thickness of the part containing it.

    The minimum center to center spacing for plug welds shall be 4 times the diameter of the hole.
    The minimum center to center of slot welds (traverse direction (this way II) shall be 4 times the width of the slot. Longitudinal direction (--) shall be 2 times the length of the slot.

    Hope I do not confuse you with the (II) and the (--).
    https://rts.i-car.com/collision-repa...ze-update.html
    Steel Spot And Plug Weld Nugget Size: UPDATE
    Posted on 06 April 2022

    Located within each of the OEM-specific articles is a Spot Welding, a Spot Welding Requirement/Recommendation and a Plug Welding area. Beneath each area, general information will be provided on what is available from the OEM. It is also indicated if a spot weld and/or plug weld nugget size is available.

  11. #26
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    top to bottom

    bottom two rows welded with copper bar on the bottom

    changed gas from ~17 to ~13 CFH

    92A, 20.5+0V, bottom row
    100A, 22.1+0V, top three rows





  12. #27
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    top to bottom

    105A, 22.9+0V
    115A, 24.9+0V
    110A, 23.9+0V
    120A, 25.9+0V








    I like the penetration from 120A but lays too flat, I'm thinking 115A, 24.9+0V is best for my machine. Good penetration and plenty of weld on the face. According to i-cars no more than an 1/8 (0.125)"

  13. #28
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    Feels nice to see some progress after truck in the garage since September. Slowly biting away. Now I just need to finish fabricating the top plate and set into place.




    Thanks for answering questions and providing your suggestions!

  14. #29
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    well done, it looks like a solid repair.
    b marler

  15. #30
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    Yep, I agree, nice job.

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