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Thread: The dreaded orange peel

  1. #1

    Default The dreaded orange peel

    Hi everyone,
    First post and I am a hobbyist so go easy on me. I recently painted a 1976 ford truck I am restoring. Bodywork, primer, and basecoat turned out awesome but its the clear that gets me every time, just cant get it to lay down without orange peel. Ended up doing 3 coats, sand, flow coat, then cut and buff and it turned out amazing but I sure would like to "master" clear coat. Im bound and determined to figure this out. So if you had to have a list of adjustments that you would do, what would those be? Just for reference I have a sagola 4600 xtreme and sprayed at around 30psi with the fluid out 2 turns. Tried to stay 4-6" away and still unacceptable peel. Makes me wanna pull my hair out

  2. #2
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    Default Welcome

    Hey welcome to the site. I'm newly registered here to, but have been getting great info from here for a good while. I’m interested to see the responses you get, they’ll probably help me as well for when I start shooting paint.
    Motor Safe,
    Lee

  3. #3
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    lower Michigan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lchbuilders View Post
    Hi everyone,
    First post and I am a hobbyist so go easy on me. I recently painted a 1976 ford truck I am restoring. Bodywork, primer, and basecoat turned out awesome but its the clear that gets me every time, just cant get it to lay down without orange peel. Ended up doing 3 coats, sand, flow coat, then cut and buff and it turned out amazing but I sure would like to "master" clear coat. Im bound and determined to figure this out. So if you had to have a list of adjustments that you would do, what would those be? Just for reference I have a sagola 4600 xtreme and sprayed at around 30psi with the fluid out 2 turns. Tried to stay 4-6" away and still unacceptable peel. Makes me wanna pull my hair out
    I don't understand the "fluid 2 turns out". Open the flud control knob wide open so that the trigger pulls all the way back and leave it there for as long as you own the gun.

    In order to get orange peel the paint has to be going on dry. In order for paint to go on dry you have more air going through the gun than needed. Eliminate the reasons why the paint is going on dry and your orange peel problems are over.

    The simple truth is getting a really nice smooth paintjob is walking a fine line between orange peel and runs. You want the paint to go on wet and flow out witout runs and sags. Let you in on a little secret, pro's get runs too. We are experts at repairing runs. LOL

    I just thought of a couple more reasons for orange peel. Not enough reducer when mixing the paint and another is the temperature of the clear in the gun cup. If the clear is cool or cold to the touch then the paint goes on "thicker" which can cause orange peel AND runs. Clear in the gun cup must be warm (not cold).
    LS says "Lets Go Brandon". He's like that.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    what sagola tip do you use?...1.3 , 1.3 xl?..

    i own Sagola 4600 with all different fluid tips and i also own and use many of the best spray guns out there..

    does that make me a pro?...probably not ...LOL

    it just happens that i was painting parts of a classic Mini Cooper last night and i was using Sagola 4600 with 1.2 xl tip...

    it was cold night, my spray booth was warm but i still heated up the clear coat in the microwave so it flows better...

    so i sprayed with Sagola 4600 1.2 xl tip using 27 to 29 psi, about 6 inches apart , 2 1/4 tursn out on th efluid.. i put 2 medium wet coats, i saw that i was getting dirt, the clear coat was really smooth and minimal orange peel, but then i said, fuck it, i will add another quick passing wet coat bcs i know that i will have to polish it and fix dirt nibs...

    the final product was like this...the panels that were laying little bit more horizontal, at 30 degrees, the hood and small trunk, came out perfect , no oragne peel bcs it flowed nice...

    2 doors that were vertical, one came out great , just on the verge of getting runs and clear coat alllllmost sagging, and other door has shitty orange peel bcs i must have applied third coat of clear drier or further away.....

    i can fix oragne peel easy, i can make it glasss looking fast with 2000 grit dry sand paper , then 2000 wet , 30000 wet and some polishing.....no problems there, no need for flow coat bcs i have 3 coats of high solids clear and it is plenty ...

    so my point is that even us PROS mess up stuff but we know how to correct it..


    if you want glass looking finishes with Sagola 4600 using dvr air cap, then using 1.3 xl tip and only 2 turns on the fluid, 29, 30 psi, dont go anymore, it is too much, and moving really fast and about 6 inches from the surface and about 60, 70 percent overlpa will give you smooth flow...BUT...you gotta move fast othervise it will sag on you....

    sagola 4600 is a fast gun , almost a cannon...


    make sure that the first coat of clear is wet and uniform and not dry, it will affect everything else...on the second coat, you can actually paint further away little bit, slow down so the fluid builds up and watch it flow....

    as for other variables,well, i dont know what kind of clear coat you are using, what temperatures, what reducer, etc...

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lchbuilders View Post
    Hi everyone,
    First post and I am a hobbyist so go easy on me. I recently painted a 1976 ford truck I am restoring. Bodywork, primer, and basecoat turned out awesome but its the clear that gets me every time, just cant get it to lay down without orange peel. Ended up doing 3 coats, sand, flow coat, then cut and buff and it turned out amazing but I sure would like to "master" clear coat. Im bound and determined to figure this out. So if you had to have a list of adjustments that you would do, what would those be? Just for reference I have a sagola 4600 xtreme and sprayed at around 30psi with the fluid out 2 turns. Tried to stay 4-6" away and still unacceptable peel. Makes me wanna pull my hair out
    We spray with Sata guns DeVilbiss guns and Sagola guns and nothing applies the paint more smoothly than the Sagola 4600. On the Sagola we use the 1.3 and the 1.3 XL with the clear coat air cap and spray a variety of colors and clears and nothing beats the Sagola for the glass-like finish it produces. If you have a problem producing a smooth finish it's another variable not the 4600.

    We spray with the same gun adjustment every time. We assemble the gun then hold the trigger in and turn the needle adjustment in until it begins to move the trigger then we stop turning.

    If the room or surface is cold you may not get the paint to flow properly. If the paint is too viscose/thick the gun won't atomize properly. If you're moving too fast or holding the gun too far from the surface you'll get more orange peel.

  6. #6

    Default

    I should have clarified, I am NOT blaming the gun. I know this is all on me and other factors that I need to adjust. I am using the clear cap and 1.3xl tip. Why 2 turns out? Because I watched a YouTube video with a guy that was setting up and spraying clear with the same gun so I used his settings as a baseline to start. With my cheap primer guns I simply hold the trigger in and adjust the fluid knob in until it starts to move the trigger then stop. The strange thing is I did a test panel and divided it up into different sections and sprayed each section with different settings and I couldnt get orange peel, laid down nice and smooth except for a couple runs. Then I move to the truck and bam, orange peel.
    So in all the searching Ive done Ive seen to raise pressure and fluid, lower pressure and fluid, move slower, move faster, do thin light coats, do heavy wet coats, ect. Its one constant contradiction after another so thats why I asked the question. I know one thing, I WILL conquer this! Lol

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caveman49 View Post
    Hey welcome to the site. I'm newly registered here to, but have been getting great info from here for a good while. I’m interested to see the responses you get, they’ll probably help me as well for when I start shooting paint.

    Im been stalking autobody forums for a long time and this one seems to be the most helpful. Have found a ton of good info on here for every step of the process. I just struggle with the clear because there is so much conflicting info on how to spray. Maybe it is just one of those strange things that can be done multiple ways with good results? Hopefully there will be some good suggestions that will help other people down the road

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lchbuilders View Post
    I should have clarified, I am NOT blaming the gun. I know this is all on me and other factors that I need to adjust. I am using the clear cap and 1.3xl tip. Why 2 turns out? Because I watched a YouTube video with a guy that was setting up and spraying clear with the same gun so I used his settings as a baseline to start. With my cheap primer guns I simply hold the trigger in and adjust the fluid knob in until it starts to move the trigger then stop. The strange thing is I did a test panel and divided it up into different sections and sprayed each section with different settings and I couldnt get orange peel, laid down nice and smooth except for a couple runs. Then I move to the truck and bam, orange peel.
    So in all the searching Ive done Ive seen to raise pressure and fluid, lower pressure and fluid, move slower, move faster, do thin light coats, do heavy wet coats, ect. Its one constant contradiction after another so thats why I asked the question. I know one thing, I WILL conquer this! Lol
    Is the temperature of the paint, room and vehicle all above 60 degrees F ?
    Also be sure to allow your first coat the flash a little before you apply a second.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Len View Post
    Is the temperature of the paint, room and vehicle all above 60 degrees F ?
    Also be sure to allow your first coat the flash a little before you apply a second.
    I keep my shop at 60 and it never drops below. I have an electric heater for my day job and can get it up to 90 in there in no time, use that as a poor mans oven to cure the finish lol. I was told to use the slowest reducer possible to let things flow out so my flash times are probably a bit longer than recommended. Heres a question: i keep my compressor in a room my unheated part so I dont have to listen to it run, do you think the cold air that its sucking in could cause the problem?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lchbuilders View Post
    I keep my shop at 60 and it never drops below. I have an electric heater for my day job and can get it up to 90 in there in no time, use that as a poor mans oven to cure the finish lol. I was told to use the slowest reducer possible to let things flow out so my flash times are probably a bit longer than recommended. Heres a question: i keep my compressor in a room my unheated part so I dont have to listen to it run, do you think the cold air that its sucking in could cause the problem?
    If the air from the compressor is cold it could effect your result, I've always had my compressor in side so I haven't any experience with that variable.

    I almost never use slow hardener or reducer it slows down the process and allows more of a dust problem to take place.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lchbuilders View Post
    I keep my shop at 60 and it never drops below. I have an electric heater for my day job and can get it up to 90 in there in no time, use that as a poor mans oven to cure the finish lol. I was told to use the slowest reducer possible to let things flow out so my flash times are probably a bit longer than recommended. Heres a question: i keep my compressor in a room my unheated part so I dont have to listen to it run, do you think the cold air that its sucking in could cause the problem?
    I have a Quincy air compressor in my shop, which they aren't too loud to start with (900 rpm). But I do use some 2 1/2 PVC pipe connected to the compressor air intake and ran the other end up in the attic of my shop (with a filter on the other end of the PVC pipe.) I can stand next to my compressor while it's running and have a conversation with somone, so it's pretty quiet by comparison.

    Never a good idea to have a compressor in a separate cold unheated space.

    To answer your question. I really doubt your cold air compressor that has anything to do with your orange peel problem, once they run for a while the air inside the tank is warm anyway.
    LS says "Lets Go Brandon". He's like that.

  12. #12
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    i wish people would stop posting video of their gun settings. all it does is confuse people that are less experienced. sure, i could throttle my gun back and still get a good finish, but it's because i know how to adjust my technique to deal with what the gun is doing. don't try to make the gun compensate for poor technique. if you feel like the gun is delivering too much product, maybe you should be using a smaller gun.
    the gun will always perform best when it's set with for full fluid flow and maximum fan. then all you need to do is make sure your mix is right and you have proper pressure. everything else is on you. you mentioned slow reducer. sure you can play with that to get longer flow time, but if you're less experienced, just use the reducer for the temperature you have. it's pretty rare that i want to slow down the flash time, maybe once in fifty, or with a specific product that i know works better that way. just stick with the manufacturers recommendations, they did the research already, and know how their product works.
    use practice panels so you can see how the paint lands on the surface, and don't get psyched out when you move to the actual project. if you did fine with the test panel, and then it goes awry on the project, move back to the test panel again and work your technique.
    practice loading heavily on the test panel so you can see exactly how much you can get away with putting on before it all runs onto the floor. i think phil pointed out that it's a fine line between perfect and runs. he's got a good point. you get an amazing glassy finish when you're right on the edge of having too much wet paint on the panel.
    but that doesn't mean that you have to load it that heavy to get a decent finish. we all have defects. orange peel, runs, nibs...you get good at fixing them. the worst is when you get severe dry spray, fisheye, or solvent pop. those require more work to correct. if you see those happening, stop. no sense in applying more in that case till you fix the problem.
    b marler

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmarler View Post
    i wish people would stop posting video of their gun settings. all it does is confuse people that are less experienced. sure, i could throttle my gun back and still get a good finish, but it's because i know how to adjust my technique to deal with what the gun is doing. don't try to make the gun compensate for poor technique. if you feel like the gun is delivering too much product, maybe you should be using a smaller gun.
    the gun will always perform best when it's set with for full fluid flow and maximum fan. then all you need to do is make sure your mix is right and you have proper pressure. everything else is on you. you mentioned slow reducer. sure you can play with that to get longer flow time, but if you're less experienced, just use the reducer for the temperature you have. it's pretty rare that i want to slow down the flash time, maybe once in fifty, or with a specific product that i know works better that way. just stick with the manufacturers recommendations, they did the research already, and know how their product works.
    use practice panels so you can see how the paint lands on the surface, and don't get psyched out when you move to the actual project. if you did fine with the test panel, and then it goes awry on the project, move back to the test panel again and work your technique.
    practice loading heavily on the test panel so you can see exactly how much you can get away with putting on before it all runs onto the floor. i think phil pointed out that it's a fine line between perfect and runs. he's got a good point. you get an amazing glassy finish when you're right on the edge of having too much wet paint on the panel.
    but that doesn't mean that you have to load it that heavy to get a decent finish. we all have defects. orange peel, runs, nibs...you get good at fixing them. the worst is when you get severe dry spray, fisheye, or solvent pop. those require more work to correct. if you see those happening, stop. no sense in applying more in that case till you fix the problem.
    Good post. And I agree with everything but the fan wide open. All the guns I have used with the fan wide open will put too much paint to the outsdie edges of the fan. Turn the fan screw wide open and then slowly bring it back in just a little, until the fan pattern is equal end to end. Fan test pattern should be a cigar shape. If the fan is wide open the test pattern will look more like a barbell with more concentration on the top and bottom of the fan.
    LS says "Lets Go Brandon". He's like that.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil V View Post
    Good post. And I agree with everything but the fan wide open. All the guns I have used with the fan wide open will put too much paint to the outsdie edges of the fan. Turn the fan screw wide open and then slowly bring it back in just a little, until the fan pattern is equal end to end. Fan test pattern should be a cigar shape. If the fan is wide open the test pattern will look more like a barbell with more concentration on the top and bottom of the fan.
    That all depends on the engineering of the gun, some should be sprayed with a reduced pattern and some work well wide open.

  15. #15
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    I own pretty much all of the high end spray guns for clearcoat except new Satas 5500 which I will never rbuyand I have tested new devilbiss DV1 clear coat gun, which sprays same as Tekna prolite..

    My experience as to gun settings, fan adjustment, fluid, pressure..

    Sagola 4600 is the most robust and best engineered gun out there, fan full wide open is the best setting and ino need to adjust on large panels. ...1.3 or 1 3 xl fluid top, always start with 2 fluids turn out bcs if you go with qose open and till needle feels tightening , well, it is wayyy you much clearcoat...this is super fast gun and better to control it....2 bar or 29 psi and away you go...

    Sata 4000 and 5000 I have, fan is either fully open or just one little turn in to even the edges, again 2 turns on the fluid and go from there...

    Devilbiss Tekna or DV1 is always fan full open, fluid adjustment is full open wide then wind back till needle tightens, and 26 to 30 psi...

    Now Iwata guns, well, they are the most difficult to set up for fan and fluid.....you never run them with the full fa, it is just wayyyy too huge and big, lph400 and w4000 i set up 2 to 3 turns out on the fan and fluid 3 to 4 turns out for full fluid and pressure is between 20 ton25 psi... .not easy to set up.....they work grear ebe at lower pressures, 16 to 20 psi....supernova ws400 I set up with fan either 1 3/4 or 2 turns out and fluid full open with 1.3 HD set up and 26 to 29 psi and away you go..gives the flattest finish...

    My Walcom carbonio 360 the clear coat gun has a hugeeeee fan when fully open but it works great when both fan and fluid are fully open .....it has a softest spray out of all guns ...I turn the fan in about 1 to 1 1/4 to increase speed and flow and to move faster..


    As far as the getting flattest orange peel free and even finish, I would say Iwata supernova ws400 really does the best......and for that heavier glassy finish, I'd say Sagola is fast and superb ...


    Another variable or tool is viscosity cup for clearcoat, it helps a lot to keep consistency in check for whatever product one is using...

    I prefer 2 medium wet coats for clear or thin wet coats to avoid urethane overload or urethane wave on most vehicles...

    On German cars, I go heavyyyy without running or sagging it, the warm spraybooth , warm metal panels, and warm clear coat help with this , medium hardener and spraying first coat thin and wet closer to the panel and moving fast and more overlap really makes a difference...

    Too much too soon clearcoat will produce urethane wave and other issues..

    I'd say it is better for novice or new painters to do even consisten coats of clear , perhaps even do 3 coats without worrying about orange peel and then simply remove any texture with some sanding and polishing...

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