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Fizzer600
08-23-2017, 07:32 PM
Hi all,

My dad owns a body shop and I grew up working there. I was a painter's helper and slowly started painting parts for my friends' cars.

Especially when I was first learning how to paint in the booth, I would not always wear a mask so I would have 0 protection. We normally sprayed in a booth but sometimes we would do little jobs in the garage and I would not have a mask on then either.

I would rarely use latex gloves while mixing paint and spraying which unbeknownst to me at the time, offer little to no protection. I would routinely get paint, paint thinner, and clear coat all over my hands. I would regularly get home and have paint up my nose/in my ears.

I also sanded cars. I primarily wetsanded cars and never wore gloves or a mask while wetsanding. I would sometimes used a DA on some projects. I dont think I ever sanded body filler.

I worked there for maybe 5-6 summers and would sporadically visit during my childhood.

I'm in my early 20s now and I cannot stop thinking about the long-term repercussions of this, mainly cancer.

I've asked multiple doctors about my experience and long term concerns and they were all pretty dismissive about it. I feel like they see me as a young guy and assume that I have not worked there long enough to do damage.

As a side note, my grandmother died of mesothelioma, and the jury is out on whether she got the asbestos exposure from my dad's shop.

Anyone out there have any opinion as to whether or not I've done myself a ton of irreversible harm?

Len
08-23-2017, 08:35 PM
If you were inhaling overspray from hardened paint that contained isocyanates then you could possibly be harmed but the cases that I'm familiar with were people that had symptoms within days of their exposure. The dust from other types of products can result in problems down the road but I don't know of anything much you can do about it until the problem is diagnosed.

In my 20s I did this work for many years before I started protecting my lungs but the paint was mostly lacquer and not as harmful as the paint being used today. So far I'm showing no signs of exposure but I take a lot of vitamins and I'm careful to use my supplied air breathing system when I paint.

Henry
08-24-2017, 12:38 AM
If you were inhaling overspray from hardened paint that contained isocyanates then you could possibly be harmed but the cases that I'm familiar with were people that had symptoms within days of their exposure. The dust from other types of products can result in problems down the road but I don't know of anything much you can do about it until the problem is diagnosed.

In my 20s I did this work for many years before I started protecting my lungs but the paint was mostly lacquer and not as harmful as the paint being used today. So far I'm showing no signs of exposure but I take a lot of vitamins and I'm careful to use my supplied air breathing system when I paint.

Len, I wonder what the effect this work has in our lungs with regards to COPD? Any thoughts? Thanks.

Henry

I know smoking and COPD go hand in hand.

Len
08-24-2017, 04:32 AM
Len, I wonder what the effect this work has in our lungs with regards to COPD? Any thoughts? Thanks.

Henry

I know smoking and COPD go hand in hand.

COPD is a term that covers a lot of different lung problems and I'd imagine that exposure to paint or dust could cause that result.

MARTINSR
08-24-2017, 09:23 AM
All I can say is you can't beat yourself up over it, you made some mistakes and you now move on. There is no way no how that we could tell you if you have any kind of damage and likely a doctor couldn't even tell you. I have seen many men work every day in this trade full time for years, decades and not have any damage while someone else does. I think it's more about our individual bodies. I am big on protecting your body, I kills me to see the guys I work with not protecting themselves, but we really don't know how it's going to change any of us, because we are all different.

Later in life if something were to happen to you like you get cancer or something, there is simply no way you can blame what you did there at your dad's shop on it. People get all different forms of cancer every day and never stepped foot in a bodyshop so how do we make up how they caught it?

Go on with life and forget about it. The average bodyman or painter is exposed to more than you were in times 10,000,000, and they aren't dropping like flies.

If you go there again, PROTECT YOURSELF, but now that it's done, don't beat yourself up over it.

Brian

Len
08-24-2017, 09:27 AM
All I can say is you can't beat yourself up over it, you made some mistakes and you now move on. There is no way no how that we could tell you if you have any kind of damage and likely a doctor couldn't even tell you. I have seen many men work every day in this trade full time for years, decades and not have any damage while someone else does. I think it's more about our individual bodies. I am big on protecting your body, I kills me to see the guys I work with not protecting themselves, but we really don't know how it's going to change any of us, because we are all different.

Later in life if something were to happen to you like you get cancer or something, there is simply no way you can blame what you did there at your dad's shop on it. People get all different forms of cancer every day and never stepped foot in a bodyshop so how do we make up how they caught it?

Go on with life and forget about it. The average bodyman or painter is exposed to more than you were in times 10,000,000, and they aren't dropping like flies.

If you go there again, PROTECT YOURSELF, but now that it's done, don't beat yourself up over it.

Brian

I absolutely agree and I'd recommend that everyone working in this trade or not take plenty of vitamins especially vitamin C

Phil V
05-01-2018, 06:47 AM
All I can say is you can't beat yourself up over it, you made some mistakes and you now move on. There is no way no how that we could tell you if you have any kind of damage and likely a doctor couldn't even tell you. I have seen many men work every day in this trade full time for years, decades and not have any damage while someone else does. I think it's more about our individual bodies. I am big on protecting your body, I kills me to see the guys I work with not protecting themselves, but we really don't know how it's going to change any of us, because we are all different.

Later in life if something were to happen to you like you get cancer or something, there is simply no way you can blame what you did there at your dad's shop on it. People get all different forms of cancer every day and never stepped foot in a bodyshop so how do we make up how they caught it?

Go on with life and forget about it. The average bodyman or painter is exposed to more than you were in times 10,000,000, and they aren't dropping like flies.

If you go there again, PROTECT YOURSELF, but now that it's done, don't beat yourself up over it.

Brian

Good post,Brian. I absolutely agree. I worked in one shop back in the early '70's where we (bodymen) were required to use lead as a filler, no "bondo", just lead. Gloves were practically unheard of in bodyshops back then and in the summer times when it was hot we all wore T shirts so a lot of uncovered skin while grinding and sanding the lead filler. I ALWAYS wore the 3M paper masks, the single string ones I would double up and use two at the same time. The two (yellow) string masks have for me worked the best. For years I would wash off grease or paint from my bare hands with lacquer thinner. I quit doing that a few years ago and wear gloves anytime I handle paint now. When I was around paint fumes I ALWAYS wore a dual charcoal cannister painters mask. I do have minor COPD but honestly I would attribute that to smoking Camel unfiltered cigarettes for at least 20 years and then smoking a pipe for another 10 years. I had throat cancer about 10 years ago and I specifically asked several doctors including my oncologists if doing auto body work and automotive painting for 30+ years for a living could have caused the cancer. They all without hesitation told me it was the tobacco and at times the tobacco along with alcohol raised the problem even more.

My gut reaction to the original poster here who is worried about his health was to tell him he's being silly/paranoid and that the odds are 99.999% he is fine with no long term effects but the truth is everyone is different, their bodies process toxins at a different rate with some a lot more than others. I honestly still think he is being overly paranoid based on the fact that we ALL breathe in and ingest toxins every day of our lives. You do a lot more damage inhaling gasoline fumes filling up your cars gas tank than breathing a LITTLE BIT of bondo dust or dried primer dust. Walking down the herbicide and fertilizer isle at a hardware store make me paranoid, I mean the smell is very strong and there is no way in hell that can be good for you. We injest chemicals in most of the food we eat every day, pretty hard to avoid that completely. Bottom line is life is a crap shoot, all we can do is reasonably protect ourselves and hope for the best. If some work related chemical or food bothers you then avoid it. Life is too short to force yourself into doing things you know are not good for you.

If a person is paranoid about short term and long term bad effects of body work and painting then don't do it. Pay someone else to do it. It's not rocket science.

Henry
05-01-2018, 08:52 AM
Good post,Brian. I absolutely agree. I worked in one shop back in the early '70's where we (bodymen) were required to use lead as a filler, no "bondo", just lead. Gloves were practically unheard of in bodyshops back then and in the summer times when it was hot we all wore T shirts so a lot of uncovered skin while grinding and sanding the lead filler. I ALWAYS wore the 3M paper masks, the single string ones I would double up and use two at the same time. The two (yellow) string masks have for me worked the best. For years I would wash off grease or paint from my bare hands with lacquer thinner. I quit doing that a few years ago and wear gloves anytime I handle paint now. When I was around paint fumes I ALWAYS wore a dual charcoal cannister painters mask. I do have minor COPD but honestly I would attribute that to smoking Camel unfiltered cigarettes for at least 20 years and then smoking a pipe for another 10 years. I had throat cancer about 10 years ago and I specifically asked several doctors including my oncologists if doing auto body work and automotive painting for 30+ years for a living could have caused the cancer. They all without hesitation told me it was the tobacco and at times the tobacco along with alcohol raised the problem even more.

My gut reaction to the original poster here who is worried about his health was to tell him he's being silly/paranoid and that the odds are 99.999% he is fine with no long term effects but the truth is everyone is different, their bodies process toxins at a different rate with some a lot more than others. I honestly still think he is being overly paranoid based on the fact that we ALL breathe in and ingest toxins every day of our lives. You do a lot more damage inhaling gasoline fumes filling up your cars gas tank than breathing a LITTLE BIT of bondo dust or dried primer dust. Walking down the herbicide and fertilizer isle at a hardware store make me paranoid, I mean the smell is very strong and there is no way in hell that can be good for you. We injest chemicals in most of the food we eat every day, pretty hard to avoid that completely. Bottom line is life is a crap shoot, all we can do is reasonably protect ourselves and hope for the best. If some work related chemical or food bothers you then avoid it. Life is too short to force yourself into doing things you know are not good for you.

If a person is paranoid about short term and long term bad effects of body work and painting then don't do it. Pay someone else to do it. It's not rocket science.

Phil, you touched on something that has annoyed me for a couple years. What you said about asking doctors quoting you as follows: "I specifically asked several doctors including my oncologists if doing auto body work and automotive painting for 30+ years for a living".

I too share your thoughts and concerns and doctors LOVE to jump on "smoking" solely. I feel 'they' don't know and what's got me more anxious about all this is over the past few years, you see more and more adverse health hazards and lawsuits against 'talcum powder' and its use on the body. Well, HELLO, 'talcum powder' is what we end up sanding off as 'body filler'. And how much of that have we breathed in over the years?

I think these 'talcum powder' hazards we hear about now should be extended to the autobody workers. COPD can be affected (and probably caused) by what we breathe from aerosol cans of cleaning products and they warn to use trigger sprays instead of aerosols. You're not supposed to breathe air fresheners either. We've all seen the cloud of overspray from aerosols sprayed in the house as cleaners near a sunlit window. Have you seen the commercial for FABREEZE where they spray everything in a room for a fresh scent? Right, as we BREATHE it all in.

You brought up a good point and each day, more chemicals come to market. OK, I'm done.

Henry

Len
05-01-2018, 10:35 AM
As far as I've seen the biggest hazard for your health in body work or painting is the isocyanates in hardened paint products. You can generate life long problems with one bad dose and charcoal canister masks are minimal protection. If you can't afford proper protection (supplied air system) you should pay a person who has this equipment to do the job for you. I've seen and heard many people that never recovered from iso poisoning.

Henry
05-01-2018, 11:06 AM
As far as I've seen the biggest hazard for your health in body work or painting is the isocyanates in hardened paint products. You can generate life long problems with one bad dose and charcoal canister masks are minimal protection. If you can't afford proper protection (supplied air system) you should pay a person who has this equipment to do the job for you. I've seen and heard many people that never recovered from iso poisoning.

Hazards of ISO in paint go without saying.

NOTE: If you are starting out and plan to stay in this field or are active with the products creating ISO contaminants and under 60, you REALLY 'MUST' hook yourself up with a Supplied Air System and do it NOW! Sure, you may say and feel, I feel fine as the adrenaline flows within you when you look at how nice your latest paintjob comes out but you WILL pay down the road. Just make it part of your needed equipment just like your compressor and spraygun.

Breathing masks are actually rated for 8 hours exposure to AIR alone as they suck in anything they are exposed to and that's if used correctly and repackaged correctly in their bag. Also, they should NEVER be taken off where you just painted or left out of their package particularly in a spray booth. Here, want something to think about in what I said? NOTICE when you open a new spray mask and remove it from the bag, you see that formed piece of plastic against the INSIDE of the mask? The one over the area you put over your nose and mouth? That piece was NOT needed to package the mask it was purposely included as part of the mask because the area the plastic covers sucks when exposed to air or contaminants. This piece MUST be put back in that same area to keep the filters from filling up. Think about that and the fact that it would be cheaper for all makers to leave that piece out OTHER than it is NEEDED.

Henry

Phil V
05-03-2018, 12:00 PM
Hazards of ISO in paint go without saying.

NOTE: If you are starting out and plan to stay in this field or are active with the products creating ISO contaminants and under 60, you REALLY 'MUST' hook yourself up with a Supplied Air System and do it NOW! Sure, you may say and feel, I feel fine as the adrenaline flows within you when you look at how nice your latest paintjob comes out but you WILL pay down the road. Just make it part of your needed equipment just like your compressor and spraygun.

Breathing masks are actually rated for 8 hours exposure to AIR alone as they suck in anything they are exposed to and that's if used correctly and repackaged correctly in their bag. Also, they should NEVER be taken off where you just painted or left out of their package particularly in a spray booth. Here, want something to think about in what I said? NOTICE when you open a new spray mask and remove it from the bag, you see that formed piece of plastic against the INSIDE of the mask? The one over the area you put over your nose and mouth? That piece was NOT needed to package the mask it was purposely included as part of the mask because the area the plastic covers sucks when exposed to air or contaminants. This piece MUST be put back in that same area to keep the filters from filling up. Think about that and the fact that it would be cheaper for all makers to leave that piece out OTHER than it is NEEDED.

Henry

That's silly, Henry. Masks don't "suck in" anything. If left in the open air the charcoal filters may take in tiny amounts of moisture in the air. Look at is as a water filter or an air line filter. A water filter is not going to absorb anything if the water isn't flowing through it. The same with an air line filter, it's not going to absorb anything unless the air is flowing through it. The same premise for a dual charcoal painters mask.

I also think that a dual charcoal painters mask is good for only 8 hours just in open air is bullshit. I have been using 3M dual charcoal painters masks for 47 years as a professional automotive painter so I reasonably have a real life working relationship with those masks.
How long they last and how well they work.

Len
05-03-2018, 03:19 PM
That's silly, Henry. Masks don't "suck in" anything. If left in the open air the charcoal filters may take in tiny amounts of moisture in the air. Look at is as a water filter or an air line filter. A water filter is not going to absorb anything if the water isn't flowing through it. The same with an air line filter, it's not going to absorb anything unless the air is flowing through it. The same premise for a dual charcoal painters mask.

I also think that a dual charcoal painters mask is good for only 8 hours just in open air is bullshit. I have been using 3M dual charcoal painters masks for 47 years as a professional automotive painter so I reasonably have a real life working relationship with those masks.
How long they last and how well they work.

The life of a cartridge mask depends on the environment it's used in. Isos are very dangerous and in a downdraft booth they have little effect on a mask but in a garage with little air exchange along with dust can shorten the life of the cartridges to one or two applications.

When we were starting to use cartridge masks the 3M rep was telling us how the masks needed to be replaced after 8 hours of use but that will depend on the amount of contaminants that need to be filtered.

When isos became part of the paint technology our supplier told us that he wouldn't sell us anymore paint unless we purchased a "supplied air" system and we haven't used a cartridge mask in over 35 years. The positive pressure of supplied air systems insure clean breathing air while a cartridge mask is a crap shoot because the slightest leak can cause life long health problems.

Henry
05-03-2018, 05:40 PM
That's silly, Henry. Masks don't "suck in" anything. If left in the open air the charcoal filters may take in tiny amounts of moisture in the air. Look at is as a water filter or an air line filter. A water filter is not going to absorb anything if the water isn't flowing through it. The same with an air line filter, it's not going to absorb anything unless the air is flowing through it. The same premise for a dual charcoal painters mask.

I also think that a dual charcoal painters mask is good for only 8 hours just in open air is bullshit. I have been using 3M dual charcoal painters masks for 47 years as a professional automotive painter so I reasonably have a real life working relationship with those masks.
How long they last and how well they work.

We were lucky in what we did back in the day and the products we used were lacquer and enamel. Many years we wore a dust mask unless we were smoking while spraying.

I maintain what I said and manufacturers will back it up. Have a look at the following:

"Be sure to keep the chemical cartridges in an air-tight plastic bag as they will absorb toxins 24/7 and slowly degrade if exposed to normal air."

"3M 07193 Dual Cartridge Respirator Assembly
This respirator is for a one time use and it promises 8 hours of heavy vapor filtering or 40 hour of light vapor filtering. Made to filter organic vapors (VOCs) when spraying many types of paint."

From PK SAFETY
"Also ideal for non-urethane spray painting (urethane paints that contain isocyanates which cannot be filtered out."

Phil, show me anywhere, by any manufacturer where it is stated you can use a cartridge mask safely for products containing ISOCYANATES. You may get as far a the word urethane.

We had this debate 18 years ago when "Becka" was a sales mgr for NeoTerik supplied air breathing systems. So, bottom line, there is a much more intense use of bad products today than we were exposed to and cartridge masks are NOT all you think they are. I'm not trying to change your mind, just want others who come here to be mindful of what's taking place.

When the major mask manufacturers put on the package, "This mask is safe for Urethane Paints containing ISOSYANATES" then we'll have a new mask on the scene.

Phil V
05-07-2018, 06:32 AM
We were lucky in what we did back in the day and the products we used were lacquer and enamel. Many years we wore a dust mask unless we were smoking while spraying.

I maintain what I said and manufacturers will back it up. Have a look at the following:

"Be sure to keep the chemical cartridges in an air-tight plastic bag as they will absorb toxins 24/7 and slowly degrade if exposed to normal air."

"3M 07193 Dual Cartridge Respirator Assembly
This respirator is for a one time use and it promises 8 hours of heavy vapor filtering or 40 hour of light vapor filtering. Made to filter organic vapors (VOCs) when spraying many types of paint."

From PK SAFETY
"Also ideal for non-urethane spray painting (urethane paints that contain isocyanates which cannot be filtered out."

Phil, show me anywhere, by any manufacturer where it is stated you can use a cartridge mask safely for products containing ISOCYANATES. You may get as far a the word urethane.

We had this debate 18 years ago when "Becka" was a sales mgr for NeoTerik supplied air breathing systems. So, bottom line, there is a much more intense use of bad products today than we were exposed to and cartridge masks are NOT all you think they are. I'm not trying to change your mind, just want others who come here to be mindful of what's taking place.

When the major mask manufacturers put on the package, "This mask is safe for Urethane Paints containing ISOSYANATES" then we'll have a new mask on the scene.

Henry, I have posted several times over the last 15 years articles from OSHA/NIOSH tests that prove dual charcoal cannister painters masks ARE 100% effective in filtering out isocyanates while painting IF USED PROPERLY. They go on to say that the odor/smell of N-butyl acetate will come though the mask long before the mask leaches any isocyanates. Len is dead set on supplied air systems for breathing while painting and I have no problem with that. Air supplied systems are more idiot proof than dual cannister painters masks but again - supplied air systems are not idiot proof either and if not used properly can cause more damage than a poorly used dual cannister mask.

I've been painting professionally for almost 50 years and I never worked in a shop that had a supplied air system. NONE of the professional painters I know personally in the last 50 years used or use a supplied air system. They ALL used/use dual cannister painters masks. I would guess that now more shops probably are using more fresh air systems around here but I have no proof of that. To bad mouth and cherry pick information about dual cannister masks is to me just wrong. They work fine and always have worked fine for shooting iso hardened paint -- if used properly.

Len
05-07-2018, 08:19 AM
Henry, I have posted several times over the last 15 years articles from OSHA/NIOSH tests that prove dual charcoal cannister painters masks ARE 100% effective in filtering out isocyanates while painting IF USED PROPERLY. They go on to say that the odor/smell of N-butyl acetate will come though the mask long before the mask leaches any isocyanates. Len is dead set on supplied air systems for breathing while painting and I have no problem with that. Air supplied systems are more idiot proof than dual cannister painters masks but again - supplied air systems are not idiot proof either and if not used properly can cause more damage than a poorly used dual cannister mask.

I've been painting professionally for almost 50 years and I never worked in a shop that had a supplied air system. NONE of the professional painters I know personally in the last 50 years used or use a supplied air system. They ALL used/use dual cannister painters masks. I would guess that now more shops probably are using more fresh air systems around here but I have no proof of that. To bad mouth and cherry pick information about dual cannister masks is to me just wrong. They work fine and always have worked fine for shooting iso hardened paint -- if used properly.

Phil look at the variables of both canister and supplied air masks and you'll see that supplied air is much less dangerous to use in contaminated conditions than cartridges. My biggest concern with cartridge masks is the negative pressure generated when you inhale, it can cause leakage and especially with facial hair should not be used. If most high quality down draft booths it doesn't matter because there is very little contaminants around the painter but in cross-flow or garage painting a cartridge mask can be very dangerous to use.

Henry
05-07-2018, 08:23 AM
Henry, I have posted several times over the last 15 years articles from OSHA/NIOSH tests that prove dual charcoal cannister painters masks ARE 100% effective in filtering out isocyanates while painting IF USED PROPERLY. They go on to say that the odor/smell of N-butyl acetate will come though the mask long before the mask leaches any isocyanates. Len is dead set on supplied air systems for breathing while painting and I have no problem with that. Air supplied systems are more idiot proof than dual cannister painters masks but again - supplied air systems are not idiot proof either and if not used properly can cause more damage than a poorly used dual cannister mask.

I've been painting professionally for almost 50 years and I never worked in a shop that had a supplied air system. NONE of the professional painters I know personally in the last 50 years used or use a supplied air system. They ALL used/use dual cannister painters masks. I would guess that now more shops probably are using more fresh air systems around here but I have no proof of that. To bad mouth and cherry pick information about dual cannister masks is to me just wrong. They work fine and always have worked fine for shooting iso hardened paint -- if used properly.

Show me (and all reading this) what mask manufacturer states a cartridge mask is acceptable to be used spraying paints with ISOSYANATES.

You know, times and products are different now as I said previously. I SO wish you left what you said and my reply alone and let others just look things up.

Post something from 3M stating what you said or any of the large companies that produce protective masks.

Phil, new breed out there and if they want to stay involved for 10 - 50 years they should equip themselves with proper safety equipment.

Henry

BellStar
10-17-2018, 10:34 AM
Thinking back to the early 80's I remember cartridge masks being used by guys in the paint booth but never saw any type of mask on the guys working and sanding body filter. The only warnings I remember back then were for the use of Imron.

Len
10-17-2018, 12:35 PM
Thinking back to the early 80's I remember cartridge masks being used by guys in the paint booth but never saw any type of mask on the guys working and sanding body filter. The only warnings I remember back then were for the use of Imron.

Imron was one of the first products on the market that produced very dangerous isocyanates which is in many activated paint products today. That is why a particle mask is good for body work but most paint spraying demands a supplied air breathing system.


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style
10-17-2018, 02:26 PM
Stress kills faster then anything,keep stressing about this and you create your own problems.

https://www.webmd.com/baby/false-pregnancy-pseudocyesis#1-3

PainterDave
10-17-2018, 03:35 PM
organic vapor cartridges do filter Isocyanate. how much ? definitely not 100% that is for sure.

everyone talking about breathing, but nobody mentions skin contact. there are many ways to be poisoned by this stuff. and no imron was not the first to use Iso, that crap been used in foams and plastics long before auto paint.
i got a 55 gallon drum of 100% pure iso sitting next to me and it is some nasty stuff.

whatever you use just use something whether it be organic vapor cartridge or fresh air. gloves and suites just protect yourself

Len
10-17-2018, 03:37 PM
Stress kills faster then anything,keep stressing about this and you create your own problems.

https://www.webmd.com/baby/false-pregnancy-pseudocyesis#1-3

If you saw the result of people exposed to isos I think you might think differently. I know several people that were exposed once or twice and had to quit spraying paint. Stress related problems belong on a different forum.

bmarler
10-18-2018, 09:19 AM
organic vapor cartridges do filter Isocyanate. how much ? definitely not 100% that is for sure.

everyone talking about breathing, but nobody mentions skin contact. there are many ways to be poisoned by this stuff. and no imron was not the first to use Iso, that crap been used in foams and plastics long before auto paint.
i got a 55 gallon drum of 100% pure iso sitting next to me and it is some nasty stuff.

whatever you use just use something whether it be organic vapor cartridge or fresh air. gloves and suites just protect yourself

that's sound advice. you can absorb iso's everywhere on your body. the eyes are very vulnerable so be sure to use a full face mask. i cringe when i see those video clips of guys spraying with half masks. sets a really poor example.

Len
10-18-2018, 09:47 AM
that's sound advice. you can absorb iso's everywhere on your body. the eyes are very vulnerable so be sure to use a full face mask. i cringe when i see those video clips of guys spraying with half masks. sets a really poor example.

Yes you can be exposed through your skin or eyes but nothing is nearly as bad as breathing the isos. Cartridge masks help but because they are "negative pressure" it's easy to have contaminants leak into your lungs and most cartridges have a very limited life span. Supplied air systems are positive pressure and any leakage leaks out and not in and as long as the pumps are pumping air from a clean air environment you're breathing clean air.

Phil V
10-21-2018, 09:46 PM
Show me (and all reading this) what mask manufacturer states a cartridge mask is acceptable to be used spraying paints with ISOSYANATES.

You know, times and products are different now as I said previously. I SO wish you left what you said and my reply alone and let others just look things up.

Post something from 3M stating what you said or any of the large companies that produce protective masks.

Phil, new breed out there and if they want to stay involved for 10 - 50 years they should equip themselves with proper safety equipment.

Henry

Good Grief, Henry ! We've been through this subject 100 times in the last 20 years on this site and I have posted direct quotes from gov't safety groups OSHA/NIOSH that say dual charcoal cannister painters masks are 100% effective in filtering out isocyanates for automotive painting WHEN THE MASKS ARE USED PROPERLY. The key part here is - WHEN USED PROPERLY. The reason 3M and other charcoal cannister paint respirator companies won't guarantee their mask to filter out 100% of iso's is for one reason and one reason only -- we live in a litigious society where law suits are all too common place and those companies paint mask are NOT IDIOT PROOF. And there ARE a lot of idiots out there who would intentionally misuse those masks then try to sue them to get money. It's also possible that the masks can be misused through ignorance about proper procedures using the masks. If you don't know what your doing spraying iso hardened paint, THEN DON'T DO IT. Pay someone else who does know what they're doing.

Phil V
10-21-2018, 10:05 PM
Here is a message I posted in 2008 on this site ---

Jake, your question has been asked several times before and it has triggered hours of heated debate. The bottom line to that debate (from my perspective) is that charcoal cannister painters masks ARE 100% effective in blocking out isocyanates will protect the lungs etc when spraying iso hardened paints WHEN THE MASKS ARE USED PROPERLY. The reason the charcoal cannister manufacturing companies don't recommend their masks for iso based paints is to cover their asses because their masks are not IDIOT PROOF. If the masks are not used properly either through intentional misuse or out of ignorance in how to properly use the masks that can lead to iso exposure by the idiot painter.

Some basic rules in properly using dual charcoal painters masks (I have been using the 3-M disposable painters masks for 37 years and I have no symptoms of iso exposure related disease, which would be mainly asthma). The masks have to seal properly to the face - so no beards, go-tees, mutton chop sideburns etc etc. Mustaches are acceptible as long as they don't interfere with the mask sealing (some mustaches can be pretty outrageous).
The charcoal cannister painters masks are good for about 8 hours of actual spraying time and must be stored in an air tight container between usages.
The more concentrated the overspray is in the paint area the quicker the pre-filters will start to get clogged, so before any spraying sessions blow out the pre-filters with compressed air from the backside of the pre-filter. Or better yet keep some new replacement pre-filters on hand. While its true that iso's are odorless so the painter can't tell when or if the mask has reached its usable safe level and may be leaking iso's through the filters. There is a better way of telling when to throw the mask out. There is a chemical in paint called nbutyl acetate that does have an odor and it will leak through the charcoal cannisters long before any iso's do. Point being if you notice any chemcial smells coming through the masks filters then throw the mask out and replace it with a new mask. Make sure the mask fits properly too your face with the two straps properly adjusted to where they are not too tight or too loose. When you think you have the mask adjusted properly then put the palm of your hands over the air intake part of cannisters to block the air from coming into the mask and at that point try to breath in. If there is any air leaks around the mask it will show up at that point. after that check is successful then bend over so that the weight of the mask is trying to pull it away from your face. If it leaks air in around the mask then the straps are too loose and need to be tightened a little. My honest professional and personal experience tells me that you should be safe using a dual charcoal painters mask for painting one or two cars a year --- as long as you use the masks properly. There is no doubt in anyones mind that forced fresh air painters breathing apparatus with a fresh air hood is the best way to go when painting a car - also if properly used. If a person is in the hobby or business for the long haul then I suggest buying and using a fresh air system. For just one or two cars then the dual charcoal painters masks work fine when properly used.

Phil V
10-21-2018, 10:16 PM
1. NIOSH recommends air-supplied respirators when there is the potential for exposure to isocyanates. However, if air-purifying respirators are used, there are a few items which should be noted. First, there are no NIOSH approved air purifying respirators for isocyanates primarily because isocyanates have no odor warning properties. Studies have shown that combination dust/mist and organic cartridges ----- effectively stop isocyanates and that the various solvents will break through long before any isocyanate --------------. Therefore, the odor property of n-butyl acetate could be used to determine when respirators need to be replaced. Eye and skin protection should be provided during spray painting. (end quote).

Bigmerc
11-25-2018, 12:59 PM
Wow this is an informative thread. Iím a noob and definitely need to know the risks. What I got from the discussion is I should have a fresh air supplied system with a full face mask when painting in my 26x26 garage with 10í ceiling and minimal ventilation.

Len
11-25-2018, 04:32 PM
Wow this is an informative thread. I’m a noob and definitely need to know the risks. What I got from the discussion is I should have a fresh air supplied system with a full face mask when painting in my 26x26 garage with 10’ ceiling and minimal ventilation.

There are several ways of protecting yourself depending on what you're protecting yourself from. If you're sanding on body filler or a coating and you only need to protect yourself from dust then a low cost dust mask may work but if you have a beard you my want more protection.

If you are spraying paint and the overspray collects in the room you should use a "supplied air" system because a small dose could damage your health permanently. Some people use a cartridge mask but there are a couple of things to keep in mind...
1. A cartridge mask has a very limited lifespan and may not remove harmful chemicals after a short time.
2. A cartridge mask works on negative pressure and any small leak around the edge can expose your lungs to potential problems.
3. A supplied air system should have a hose long enough so that the pump can be placed in a clean environment while you spray.
4. If you're only spraying one or two vehicles you can probably sell a supplied air system for more than half of what you paid for it.


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Henry
11-26-2018, 10:17 AM
Wow this is an informative thread. Iím a noob and definitely need to know the risks. What I got from the discussion is I should have a fresh air supplied system with a full face mask when painting in my 26x26 garage with 10í ceiling and minimal ventilation.

A good quality cartridge mask is acceptable for 8 (that's eight hours) of exposure to any air. That's why they manufacture that plastic cover over the inside where you breathe from.

Supplied AIR is the PROPER way to go unless you can't afford to own one. That said, SUPPLIED AIR also protects your eyes and facial skin. Remember, ISO chemicals go after moist, damp wet parts of the body.

Hey, it's your life and lungs! (eyes and anything else)

Henry

bmarler
11-27-2018, 10:20 AM
i just couldn't justify the cost of the supplied air system with the small amount of hardened paints i spray these days. i won't dispute the value of that system though, and i'd have it if i had the extra dough.
but i do have a full face cartridge mask, and whenever i spray paint with iso's i put new cartridges on. be sure to check the seal by putting your hand over the intake and inhale. you'll find out right away if there's a leak. or if you smell paint there's a leak. i believe it's safe enough for the painting environment i'm in. i have "reasonable" air exchange.