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tommy
02-14-2010, 03:48 PM
There are some new EPA rules coming into action that will have a little diffrent way we have to do things .

No more "less than 2 gallons a week " rule .

ANd many others .

Ill post more when i get my PPG rep to send me the forms .

More govt. , just what we need :gloomy:


Any others heard about this new regulation .???

Len
02-14-2010, 06:09 PM
There are some new EPA rules coming into action that will have a little diffrent way we have to do things .

No more "less than 2 gallons a week " rule .

ANd many others .

Ill post more when i get my PPG rep to send me the forms .

More govt. , just what we need :gloomy:


Any others heard about this new regulation .???

I'm going to EPA class next week.

Chris L
02-16-2010, 11:03 PM
I just took the test to be certified..even tho I will be put out of business because of the overhead costs to be compliant.I was invited by another shop.Thank You MR and MRs congressman that voted this in affect.If you spray primer..it is a paint procedure,and if you spray more than 3 ounces..it has to be sprayed inside a 3 walled with a curtain prep station,filtered etc ,or booth.. paint has to be sprayed in a booth with 4 walls,filter effieciency of 98% and even a gauge to show pressure of something like .5? i Forgot the number.Your paint guns have to be in compliance also. It will put nearly every shop out of business here within 100 miles but about 6.Great work politicians.

Len
02-16-2010, 11:34 PM
I just took the test to be certified..even tho I will be put out of business because of the overhead costs to be compliant.I was invited by another shop.Thank You MR and MRs congressman that voted this in affect.If you spray primer..it is a paint procedure,and if you spray more than 3 ounces..it has to be sprayed inside a 3 walled with a curtain prep station,filtered etc ,or booth.. paint has to be sprayed in a booth with 4 walls,filter effieciency of 98% and even a gauge to show pressure of something like .5? i Forgot the number.Your paint guns have to be in compliance also. It will put nearly every shop out of business here within 100 miles but about 6.Great work politicians.

I realize you may not have all the answers but here are some of the questions that I'll be trying to have answered....

How will the laws be enforced?
Will the suppliers inspect your shop or will there be inspections by the feds?
What are the penalties?
Will hobbyists be affected?
When will the laws take affect?
What paint products do the new laws cover?

tech69
02-17-2010, 12:49 AM
Intrusive bastards!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVhT7P0lDfI

Chris L
02-17-2010, 08:56 AM
I realize you may not have all the answers but here are some of the questions that I'll be trying to have answered....

How will the laws be enforced?
Will the suppliers inspect your shop or will there be inspections by the feds?
What are the penalties?
Will hobbyists be affected?
When will the laws take affect?
What paint products do the new laws cover?
One way they can enforce it ,is in the supply line.My paint supplier informed me that he can't sell paint as of Jan 1 to anyone unless they show him a certification slip by the state.I'm sure that once you are in the books,you will be subject to shop inspection.
Penalties range from 25,000 per day civil,criminal fines up to a million and prison time up to 5 years.
Hobbiest as far as i can tell are allowed to paint 2 cars per year without being named a business.That tells me someone will have to be named,with how much paint they buy per year.
Be compliant Jan 11th 2010 and final notification filed with epa by March 11.
There are 4-5 chemicals covered by this,and automotive paints have them. Even woodworkers have their own laws from this bill.

Chris L
02-17-2010, 08:57 AM
Intrusive bastards!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVhT7P0lDfI
Funny ad....you have no idea how much some politicians would love that to happen and givin half the chance..would.

Len
02-17-2010, 09:34 AM
Funny ad....you have no idea how much some politicians would love that to happen and givin half the chance..would.

I'm not real happy with a lot of the restrictions placed on our industry because they effect me and my customers but I do understand why many of these laws must be put into play. We've had several shops in this area that have dumped toxins on their property or pump chemicals into the air that effect the surrounding community. It will cost more to do things properly and some businesses may close but this has been a long time coming and it may be time to correct a lot of these situations that can have long term effects on our health. It's a shame that we have to make laws that effect everyone just because there are a few sinners but that's the price we have to pay NOT to be exposed (or exposing others) to these toxins. On the other side of the argument I'd like to see the damage that is NOW being done to justify these new laws.

Kent
02-17-2010, 10:28 AM
Hobbiests can paint up to 2 cars a year
If you don't have a filtration system, you have to use 3oz cups. You can spray more than
3oz though but with the small cups. If you use the small cups you are exempt.
HVLP guns are required, not just compliant guns.
Three sided enclosure with filtration system that catches 98-99%.

If you started your operation after 2007 (I think) you have to be compliant immediately. If before, you have until Jan, 2011.

I've registered but wonder if I am going to get something to prove that I have. I plan on seeking an exemption. The targeted HAPS are found in only 3 of my toners and they are very rarely used. Mostly in yellows and greens. I am sure Mr. G-man will be understanding.

divinity
02-17-2010, 10:45 AM
Hobbiests can paint up to 2 cars a year
If you don't have a filtration system, you have to use 3oz cups. You can spray more than
3oz though but with the small cups. If you use the small cups you are exempt.
HVLP guns are required, not just compliant guns.
Three sided enclosure with filtration system that catches 98-99%.


Dang! only 2 cars per year. Filtration system for more than 3 oz cup? I'm barely starting out in my garage. Just bought an expensive gun to replace my Astro Evo. I might as well drop the whole thing, return my unuse gun and forget about painting. The fines amount gives me the chill.

Will I have trouble buying paint?

:gloomy:

Len
02-17-2010, 01:09 PM
Dang! only 2 cars per year. Filtration system for more than 3 oz cup? I'm barely starting out in my garage. Just bought an expensive gun to replace my Astro Evo. I might as well drop the whole thing, return my unuse gun and forget about painting. The fines amount gives me the chill.

Will I have trouble buying paint?

:gloomy:

I have a meeting with a local congressman tomorrow and a class with the EPA next week. So, before we panic, I'd suggest we get some questions answered by those in the know. This has been "the sky is falling" for several years but it looks like they finally have a plan. We'll know more soon.

Len
02-17-2010, 01:10 PM
One way they can enforce it ,is in the supply line.My paint supplier informed me that he can't sell paint as of Jan 1 to anyone unless they show him a certification slip by the state.I'm sure that once you are in the books,you will be subject to shop inspection.
Penalties range from 25,000 per day civil,criminal fines up to a million and prison time up to 5 years.
Hobbiest as far as i can tell are allowed to paint 2 cars per year without being named a business.That tells me someone will have to be named,with how much paint they buy per year.
Be compliant Jan 11th 2010 and final notification filed with epa by March 11.
There are 4-5 chemicals covered by this,and automotive paints have them. Even woodworkers have their own laws from this bill.

Chris
Do you have a web address where this information can be found?

Chris L
02-17-2010, 02:31 PM
part of it can be found here. http://bodyshopbusiness.com/Article/70059/business_feature_featheredge_prime_and_block_case_ closed.aspx

Nostalgic Dave
02-17-2010, 03:16 PM
EPA video on 6H

part 1 UjCKmeYPOS0
part 2 15t_UFwMSNk

Bob K
02-17-2010, 03:25 PM
Sounds like a lot of us are going to be applying our surfacer with a roller, or at least claiming to.

Bob K

Len
02-17-2010, 03:57 PM
Thanks Nostalgic Dave, great info.


2934

wyzat520
02-17-2010, 11:12 PM
Sounds like a lot of us are going to be applying our surfacer with a roller, or at least claiming to.

Bob K


sounds like a lot of us (those who can) will be taking paint home from work :privateeye:..


what about waterbourne paints?.... Well i guess it wouldnt matter since we're still using urethane clears over the waterbourne..

slyhog22056
02-18-2010, 12:30 AM
I understand the concept but what about online sales to and from other states??? how is that gooing to be enforced even for those of us that only paint 2 cars a year? Or paint thing like equipment and trailers etc. We go through about 500+ gallons of epoxy and urethane paints where i work at every year. And these machines cant even be enclosed to be painted. Not to mrntion we [paint the building exterior every 5 years with epoxie paint.

easymoney
02-18-2010, 09:19 AM
they are just after the body shops. the government wants to drive up the cost of autobody repairs in hope to help the sales of new cars since the federal government has so much hinging on the auto making industry. sounds like a nightmare for the paint suppliers and small shops. we might be forced to paint our older cars with house paint and a brush.

Len
02-18-2010, 10:06 AM
they are just after the body shops. the government wants to drive up the cost of autobody repairs in hope to help the sales of new cars since the federal government has so much hinging on the auto making industry. sounds like a nightmare for the paint suppliers and small shops. we might be forced to paint our older cars with house paint and a brush.

Actually you're wrong about that but it's a good way to demonize the government. These chemicals have been a problem for as long as I've been in this business and the state and local governments are unable to control environmental damage without the feds being involved. They've tried zoning, licensing, equipment legislation etc. etc. and it's still a big problem for the environment and for the health of the technicians and general public. Plans have been in the works for federal control for about 20 years and they are finally getting their act together. Believe me, I'm not happy about it but I do see the need to control the sale, distribution and use of these products by those who make a living at using them. If everyone was careful with their use of these chemicals we probably wouldn't need new laws but we've had several problems just in my area where spraying or dumping of hazardous body shop materials has cause problems, I can't imagine how bad it must be in areas where the laws are less stringent.

tech69
02-18-2010, 10:18 AM
A bunch of terrorists with suits if you ask me.

88GT
02-18-2010, 10:18 AM
Its like marijuana (even tho In not for legalizing marijuana) People will still do it, just not legally. And it will be an even bigger problem later. Now there will be paint deals gone bad LOL

tech69
02-18-2010, 10:20 AM
yeah but they can control the source to paint. Can't really stop everyone from growing. So eventually they can bare down as hard as they want in the end.

88GT
02-18-2010, 10:38 AM
Dont blame me. I didnt vote for BHO. My wife did tho :nono:

tech69
02-18-2010, 10:43 AM
same here, and my wife's already convinced he's an idiot. :p

How's your wife feeling about that decision?

88GT
02-18-2010, 10:46 AM
same here, and my wife's already convinced he's an idiot. :p

How's your wife feeling about that decision?

Shes still in denial. Shes able to convince herself that she hasnt totally %&@#ed up yet. Give it time tho. she'll come around

alaskajeff
02-18-2010, 11:29 AM
A bunch of terrorists with suits if you ask me.

Didn't you use to want the Gov't to prohibit selling anything w/ isos to hobbiests? Glad to see you're coming around.;)

Mooch
02-18-2010, 11:56 AM
same here, and my wife's already convinced he's an idiot. :p

How's your wife feeling about that decision?

Hate to break it to you idiots but it all started under Bush . But to me it makes sense as sometimes you have to protect the idiots from themselves .

I don't see where it is such a big deal . A little schooling which most of you need . A booth which everyone needs and a gun washer . Big deal .

Mooch

88GT
02-18-2010, 12:15 PM
Mooch knows all this how? Or is he just an internet know it all?

Mooch
02-18-2010, 12:22 PM
Mooch knows all this how? Or is he just an internet know it all?

To everyone who knows how to read . Everyone was warned a few years ago that this would happen . Try reading sometime 88 you just might learn something .

88GT
02-18-2010, 12:24 PM
They have all been in bed together for decades. I myself will be ready for my next career by the time all this plays out. :)

Mooch
02-18-2010, 12:38 PM
They have all been in bed together for decades. I myself will be ready for my next career by the time all this plays out. :)





My guess would be a ........ Clown ?

88GT
02-18-2010, 12:46 PM
Nah, probably some GS desk job. Id have hiring preference too. AND a second pension :D
I knew a retired Air Force E-9 that was also a nearly retired GS 13. Talk about havin it made :8

paintnbcool
02-18-2010, 02:09 PM
This is the ruling that is coming Jan. 2011
http://www.epa.gov/collisionrepair/pdfs/20080701_CFR_HHHHHH.pdf

jonr
02-18-2010, 06:51 PM
Len, I'm confused - are you saying that you think paint sales should be restricted to the pros, and that hobbyists shouldn't be allowed to buy it?

Jon

Len
02-18-2010, 09:13 PM
Len, I'm confused - are you saying that you think paint sales should be restricted to the pros, and that hobbyists shouldn't be allowed to buy it?

Jon

No, I'm saying that sales should be tracked so that the more you use the closer you are monitored. These products are quite dangerous and it's been proven that a lack of supervision can allow a small number of users to damage the environment that we all need to rely on.

StingRay
02-18-2010, 11:26 PM
From what I can see in that ruling the hobbiest is OK at less than 2 cars per year without a bunch of restrictions. Common sense and local codes will still need to be followed. I recall a lot of debate about this back when it was proposed. The SEMA action network even got involved and lobbied on your behalf. Things are similar here in Canada but we will be going Low VOC which means water borne base coats and high solids clears. Water borne bases will make the garage paint job alot harder but I have confidence that we'll innovate and prevail.

Len
02-19-2010, 07:35 AM
From what I can see in that ruling the hobbiest is OK at less than 2 cars per year without a bunch of restrictions. Common sense and local codes will still need to be followed. I recall a lot of debate about this back when it was proposed. The SEMA action network even got involved and lobbied on your behalf. Things are similar here in Canada but we will be going Low VOC which means water borne base coats and high solids clears. Water borne bases will make the garage paint job alot harder but I have confidence that we'll innovate and prevail.

The problem with waterborne was getting it to dry in a reasonable length of time but most waterborne products have already been improved to address this issue.

barthmonster
02-19-2010, 08:09 AM
Waterborne base isn't even that big of a problem for the hobbyist as I see it if you have some time. It's the primer and the clear. High-Solids clear shouldn't be an issue, it's the booth. So let me get this straight, at 2 or less cars per year, everything is as it is now ? Or are they going to come check your house for a booth with the correct filters ?

We were going to do my sons truck here in the spring. Epoxy primer, 2k primer, base and high-solids clear... May have to rent my buddy's booth, he owns a small body shop...

Len
02-19-2010, 08:19 AM
Waterborne base isn't even that big of a problem for the hobbyist as I see it if you have some time. It's the primer and the clear. High-Solids clear shouldn't be an issue, it's the booth. So let me get this straight, at 2 or less cars per year, everything is as it is now ? Or are they going to come check your house for a booth with the correct filters ?

We were going to do my sons truck here in the spring. Epoxy primer, 2k primer, base and high-solids clear... May have to rent my buddy's booth, he owns a small body shop...

The word on the street is that doing two cars or less a year will not be subject to the new laws. It should be interesting to see how this is enforced.

dchristian
02-19-2010, 10:12 AM
So us hobbiest will have to be trained and certified before we can even buy paint? How would a paint jobber keep up with it unless they require everyone to be certified? If I am not required to be certified then can I get paint for two cars per paint dealer in my area ? I think there are 5 here so I can paint 10 cars? Is the jobber going to come to my home garage to certify that I have an EPA approved paint booth? Looks to me like if I were a paint jobber that it would be more trouble than it is worth to deal with hobbiest so I would just quit selling to them. Maybe, someone will come up with an afordable certification process for the hobbiest. There are no autobody tech schools close by that I could go to.

frostje
02-19-2010, 10:30 AM
I have a place where zoning caused the stoppage of any and all painting. Since I say this, I am currently looking for a place to paint. Most garages or storage ..DO NOT want you to paint there. Most places do not have 220 power capabilities, unless you pay out the nose for rent. THis is my hobby and has been severly crippled due to the zoning law just passed in my township. Really occurred from a nasty neighbor, who always caused problems with all his neighbors for about 40yrs. He just died 2 months ago, but the damage is done and now I have to find a place, which isn't easy.

Len
02-19-2010, 10:40 AM
So us hobbiest will have to be trained and certified before we can even buy paint? How would a paint jobber keep up with it unless they require everyone to be certified? If I am not required to be certified then can I get paint for two cars per paint dealer in my area ? I think there are 5 here so I can paint 10 cars? Is the jobber going to come to my home garage to certify that I have an EPA approved paint booth? Looks to me like if I were a paint jobber that it would be more trouble than it is worth to deal with hobbiest so I would just quit selling to them. Maybe, someone will come up with an afordable certification process for the hobbiest. There are no autobody tech schools close by that I could go to.

Yes, there are more questions than answers at this point. I would imagine that the hobbyist won't be effected but you never know until the rules are in place. I would think that you would need to register to buy paint then your purchases could be tracked. I should know more soon.

Len
02-19-2010, 10:48 AM
I have a place where zoning caused the stoppage of any and all painting. Since I say this, I am currently looking for a place to paint. Most garages or storage ..DO NOT want you to paint there. Most places do not have 220 power capabilities, unless you pay out the nose for rent. THis is my hobby and has been severly crippled due to the zoning law just passed in my township. Really occurred from a nasty neighbor, who always caused problems with all his neighbors for about 40yrs. He just died 2 months ago, but the damage is done and now I have to find a place, which isn't easy.

I think you'll find that ANY residential area has it's restrictions with good cause. I wouldn't want to live in a neighborhood where the guy next door stinks up the place regularly and can damage my health or property. You've got to be careful where and when you spray or your local laws will come to haunt you.

tech69
02-20-2010, 10:41 AM
I think these environazis should put a lid on it til at least the recession is completely over. It like as soon as we were hurting the epa wanted to put more strain on us...and I'm not just talking auto body. Government doesn't create jobs or pay taxes and that's something we should all remember.

mike pollard
02-21-2010, 10:57 AM
This is a little off topic but I wanted to share my experience with the EPA. My wife owened a beauty salon in a small town that was on a municipal waste water system. We moved to a rural area with a septic system and wanted to reopen the business. We contacted the EPA and provided them with all the documntation they requested. When they came to do the sight survey, which took all of ten minuets, they told me I needed to have a system that would handle 600 gallons a day, I had sent them 5 years of records from the water dept. that showed an average of 220 gallons a day, their response was "we don't care about your records". They went on to say that I would have to pay for water well monitering yearly so I asked them if the chemicals from hair colour etc. were toxic, their response " no, not at all". This septic system would have cost me 100 K to install, have taken up mora than a acre of land and I would have to permantly set aside another 2 acres in case thay decided at a later date that what I had didn't suit them. I asked why I would need all this to treat 220 gallons a day of non-toxic effulent and their response was "because we said so". Needles to say another small business gone. I think that at one time the EPA was needed but now they are just one more reason all the jobes are going away.

Rollinsmoke
02-21-2010, 06:47 PM
Well, I'm new on here but, I'll tell you what my supplier told us.............

His words, ROUGHLY, I don't care what you're painting, when you're painting, how much you're painting as long as you pay your bill. HE CLAIMS: that it will be, (IN Virginia anyway), like buying cold/sinus medicine is in some states like WV. Anytime we buy Advil Cold & Sinus, Sudafed and several other things they scan the back of our drivers license/State ID and it's recorded in a database. This database is IN STORE ONLY. IE- CVS pharmacy keeps these records for X number of years and NO ONE even pays attention to what you buy until you get pulled over and the cop finds 200 boxes of Sudafed in your trunk and then they get a search warrant for your house and find your meth lab because you couldn't afford a choclate lab. (Larry the Cable guy, get it ???). Sooooooo, in other words this will be an "in store/in company database". Now, once you start pumpin iscy's into your neighbors windows, water well or during their ignorant ass kids birthday party you've got a problem.

So, us "small" guys really won't have anything to worry about. These guys have never steered me wrong, EVER! So, I assume what he says is true. From what I understood, the states were going to "babysit" these regs., like many others, even though it's a federal law.

??? I don't know everyone elses experience but, over the past five (5) years or so, the state EPA, (DEP in WV), made its rounds to the body, equipment and any other shops that do paint work and made them get a "proper" booth. I know of a very well known bodyshop that has been around for 40+ years and they are pretty anal about paint/chemical disposal and protecting their neighbors. They had been using the same HOMEMADE booth for 20+ years without a problem. They warned them, a total of three (3) times and then jerked their business license until they bought a "factory made booth"! They do a fair amount of tractor trailer work so as one would assume, this booth set them back many k's because of the sheer size of the filtration system and it's "self monitoring" capability. They still do primer work in the home made booth but, everyone always knows when the DEP guy is in town because, everybody "gets sick" or has a sudden emergency and shut down rather quickly. Most of the shops around here, even the outcasts, put a couple of dollars a month into a pot and when one of them gets a fine they pay it and/or pay a lawyer to get the fine lowered. See, that's how they know when the sniffers are in town, He stops by one shop and that guy has one of his office girls/guys call EVERY shop in the surrounding area. Works out good!

From what I've experienced with OSHA in the construction business I really don't think anyone but the BIG BOYS, (main street, fancy new building, nice equipment), will have to make any changes! I DO NOT think this is fair but...........

I really DO NOT care what the new law(s) do and/or change. I DO CARE about if and how they enforce them.

Just my 1/2 cent worth, because it's all I have left!

kevininohio
02-24-2010, 09:59 AM
I asked why I would need all this to treat 220 gallons a day of non-toxic effulent and their response was "because we said so". Needles to say another small business gone. I think that at one time the EPA was needed but now they are just one more reason all the jobes are going away.

I have some experiences "trying" to work with the EPA. I live in a rural area and worked in the agriculture spray buisness for 15 years when the EPA started regulating everything. What starts out as a seemingly good idea turns into a fiasco quickly, trust me. I'll give you just 2 quick examples.

They started out wanting to have containment area in case of tank failures. They gave dates when it had to be completed or fines would be leveled. They gave guidelines and several companies jumped right in and complied. Made earthen dam walls reset all their HUGE tanks and replumbed everything costing some pretty serious $$$. Within a couple months of the "compliant date" they changed the rules and said it had to be concrete or block walls. Everyone who jumped in to comply using earthen walls were non compliant and had to change. They Made a new date to have it done by. This happened several times with them changing their minds with what was okay and PO'd everyone involved who were TRYING to comply.

Another one was a local company had someone sneek in and open a valve after hours and the hose was thrown over the dike walls. Liqiuid nitrogen spilled into a ditch killing some minnows. EPA fined them for not having locked valves and for replacing the fish in the ditch. Ironic part is that the ditch dries up EVERY year and all of them die then anyway. I have yet to see them collect the fines from God for not sending enough rain!

Common sense gets lost quickly and it becomes a thing of people sitting around tables saying "We should add this to the regulation" and it spirals out of control. Hopefully it will not be as bad but I have a feeling history will repeat. Seems like they want laws in the books so that when they WANT to they come down on someone hard if they want to.

alaskajeff
02-24-2010, 10:42 AM
Don't even get me started on the EPA. Like most Fed Gov't agencies, I imagine they were established with good intentions and fulfilled a perceived need. But also like most Fed Gov't agencies, the bureaucracy grew, the desire for larger budgets, greater jurisdiction and more power grew, and the application of common sense and reasonable enforcement disappeared.

Len
02-24-2010, 11:02 AM
I went to an EPA and NJ DEP training last night and managed to walk away with quite a bit of information.

The first piece of info that should be conveyed is that these new regulations have very little effect on the hobbyist. If you are repairing cars for yourself and you are NOT charging for these repairs you don't have much to worry about when it comes to these new regulations. However your local situation may vary and you still need to use care on how you used these chemicals and how your activity effects the environment and your neighbors.


I gathered a lot of information from this training session and I'll post exact quotes from the literature by putting it in a quote box like this one.

I also gained a lot of info by asking questions and by questions asked by others so I'll also give my interpretation based on this feedback. A lot of this feedback was gained by my discussion with the sponsor of this training session who is one of the big suppliers of paint products in the southern NJ and eastern PA area.

It will take me some time to get this info on the board because I'm also trying to make a living but I'm sure it will be informative and we don't have to rely on nightmare scenarios and opinions of the regulators.

First, let me say one thing that I took away from this meeting.... If you charge for painting cars IOW you use these chemicals to make money then you should register with state and EPA. Once you register then you're on their radar and you may be inspected to make sure you're following the rules.


Who does this rule apply to?
Area sources that engage in any of the following...
>Paint stripping operations that use Methylene chloride (MeCl)-containing paint stripping formulations.
>Spray application of coatings to motor vehicles and mobile equipment.
>Spray applications of coatings to a plastic and/or metal substrates where the coatings conating compounds of chromium (Cr), Lead (Pb), Manganese (Mn), Nickel (Ni), or Cadmium (Cd).


Who does this rule NOT apply to?
>Surface coating or paint stripping performed by individuals on their personal vehicles, property or possessions, either as a hobby or for maintenance of their personal vehicles, possessions, or properlt provided they coat no more than two vehicles per year.


There are some other applications that the rule doesn't apply to like military, research labs and quality control activities but it won't apply to most of our visitors or to the applications on this site so I choose to make better use of your time and mine by not getting into them.

MORE TO COME....

Len
02-24-2010, 11:26 AM
The EPA has Regional Offices that can help answer your questions. If you're in the business of auto body refinishing it will probably pay for you to contact your regional office to get the proper guidance and permits.


http://autobodystore.net/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/epareg3.jpg

Chris L
02-25-2010, 11:10 PM
So Len,is your homemade booth up to standards for these rules?
Will you spray primer in your booth?

Len
02-26-2010, 08:21 AM
So Len,is your homemade booth up to standards for these rules?
Will you spray primer in your booth?

I think I'll be ok. It's been my experience with license and inspections that there is always something that needs to be changed and as long as you make a serious effort to obey the rules the inspectors will cut you some slack. It's the businesses that give them a hard time or don't make partial changes that get hit with the fines or are closed down.

88GT
02-26-2010, 08:41 AM
sounds like it depends on how good an ass kisser you are. I could kiss some pretty good ass if it meant staying in buisiness

tech69
02-27-2010, 12:01 PM
tainted donuts will do it.:)

Len
02-27-2010, 02:19 PM
Now that the EPA is taking up the effort to clean up the auto refinishing industry it will be making the rounds to see who endangers their employees and neighborhoods. In order to stay in business of auto refinishing there are checklists that can be filled out by the shops to help inspectors tell which shops are serious about safety issues.

The link below will generate a PDF file that can be printed and checked to see how your shop compares to EPA "Best Practices".

After you do your evaluation and score your findings then compare your score with the Evaluation Table.


LINK to Self-Evaluation Checklist (http://www.epa.gov/cgi-bin/epalink?logname=allsearch&referrer=self-evaluation%20checklist|1|All&target=http://www.epa.gov/oppt/dfe/pubs/projects/auto/self_eval_checklist.pdf)

Len
02-27-2010, 02:31 PM
Using the above list of Regional EPA Air Toxins Offices you can call to get a sample of the Initial Notification Form. The title of the form for body shops is as follows....


Initial Notification Form
Paint Stripping and Miscellaneous Surface Coating Area Sources
National Emission Standards for Hazardous Air Pollutants (NESHAP) Subpart HHHHHH
40 CFR - - 63.11169-63.11180

I couldn't post the form itself because they can change from region to region so call your regional office if you operate a commercial body shop in order to get the proper forms.

dfox1234
02-27-2010, 06:17 PM
I cannot speak for other regions other then what I was told some of the "big" items region 2 EPA office will be looking for:

1. No washing cars indoors if you have floor drains connected to municipal sewer.
2. Wet sanding sludge must now be treated as hazardous waste and disposed of properly.
3. No homemade paint booths. Paintbooths must be UL listed, and no wood fabricated booths.
4.All records must be kept on site for 3 years, of what you buy, how you dispose of it and where.

dfox1234
02-27-2010, 06:29 PM
I cannot speak for other regions other then what I was told some of the "big" items region 2 (NY,NJ, PR, VI,) EPA office will be looking for: I was told that it will vary from region to region so your results may vary. I also have to qualify where I got this info from. It comes from the autobody distributor in town.

1. No washing cars indoors if you have floor drains connected to municipal sewer.
2. Wet sanding sludge must now be treated as hazardous waste and disposed of properly.
3. No homemade paint booths. Paintbooths must be UL listed, and no wood fabricated booths.
4.All records must be kept on site for 3 years, of what you buy, how you dispose of it and where.
5. If you use 3oz cup or less you may APPLY for an exemption.

This makes me glad I do not operate a bodyshop. This sounds like it will hurt the small guy.

easymoney
02-27-2010, 11:19 PM
i wonder how thet expect you to collect your wet sanding sludge for disposal and why would it be more haszrdous that dry sanding dust? some of the people that are making the rules never worked in the real world.

Len
02-28-2010, 12:14 AM
I cannot speak for other regions other then what I was told some of the "big" items region 2 (NY,NJ, PR, VI,) EPA office will be looking for: I was told that it will vary from region to region so your results may vary. I also have to qualify where I got this info from. It comes from the autobody distributor in town.

1. No washing cars indoors if you have floor drains connected to municipal sewer.
2. Wet sanding sludge must now be treated as hazardous waste and disposed of properly.
3. No homemade paint booths. Paintbooths must be UL listed, and no wood fabricated booths.
4.All records must be kept on site for 3 years, of what you buy, how you dispose of it and where.
5. If you use 3oz cup or less you may APPLY for an exemption.

This makes me glad I do not operate a bodyshop. This sounds like it will hurt the small guy.

Are you reading these rules somewhere or are you taking someones word for them being real? If you're reading them please post a link.

paintnbcool
02-28-2010, 08:06 AM
I cannot speak for other regions other then what I was told some of the "big" items region 2 (NY,NJ, PR, VI,) EPA office will be looking for: I was told that it will vary from region to region so your results may vary. I also have to qualify where I got this info from. It comes from the autobody distributor in town.

1. No washing cars indoors if you have floor drains connected to municipal sewer.
2. Wet sanding sludge must now be treated as hazardous waste and disposed of properly.
3. No homemade paint booths. Paintbooths must be UL listed, and no wood fabricated booths.
4.All records must be kept on site for 3 years, of what you buy, how you dispose of it and where.
5. If you use 3oz cup or less you may APPLY for an exemption.

This makes me glad I do not operate a bodyshop. This sounds like it will hurt the small guy.

Read the new ruling. It dosen't say any thing about this.
http://www.epa.gov/collisionrepair/p...CFR_HHHHHH.pdf
This is the EPA Ruling so these things may be some local law.

I took the EPA training the first of Jan.on line and had to do a test at the end to make sure you did watch it and they were going to send out a certificate with in a week. Thats been over seven weeks no cetificate and no replys from my emails that were sent to them. If they handel the compliance law as well as this good luck!

tech69
03-01-2010, 01:17 AM
I think it could be true. A shop I worked at had to create speed bumps all around the wash area with a drainage pump that led to some bushes. The epa made them do it otherwise they wouldn't have done it.

Owners aren't allowed to wash their own cars at their own home!

And as stated, wetsanding sludge isn't allowed to hit the drains. An old boss used to tell me this all the time and how they can check drainage systems.

Len
03-01-2010, 08:22 AM
I think it could be true. A shop I worked at had to create speed bumps all around the wash area with a drainage pump that led to some bushes. The epa made them do it otherwise they wouldn't have done it.

Owners aren't allowed to wash their own cars at their own home!

And as stated, wetsanding sludge isn't allowed to hit the drains. An old boss used to tell me this all the time and how they can check drainage systems.

We are talking about the printed RULES that apply to body shops, of course there are variables that may be addressed when there's an inspection but it's impossible to know what they are until after a visit by the EPA. Adding your own opinion or someone else's rumor to the mix doesn't serve the learning process unless it has actually happened to you and you can speak from experience and even then all the variables may not come across and the information only serves to confuse the issue. If you're in the business of repairing cars AND you must follow the rules then get a copy of them and don't worry about what someone tells you other than the EPA.

dfox1234
03-01-2010, 10:08 PM
We are talking about the printed RULES that apply to body shops, of course there are variables that may be addressed when there's an inspection but it's impossible to know what they are until after a visit by the EPA. Adding your own opinion or someone else's rumor to the mix doesn't serve the learning process unless it has actually happened to you and you can speak from experience and even then all the variables may not come across and the information only serves to confuse the issue. If you're in the business of repairing cars AND you must follow the rules then get a copy of them and don't worry about what someone tells you other than the EPA.

The EPA does not conduct the inspections, they delegate to the state/states what the rules and mandates are. It is then up to the states to conduct and enforce these new rules.
They are unfunded mandates.
The states have the option to not take on the delegation of enforcing the mandates imposed by the federal goverment. They would then not reap the fines. All states are in a financial crisis so they want to find all the revenue they can, and the only state I know of not taking on the delagation is Maryland. In that case, the EPA would have to conduct the inspections and enforcement. The EPA does have an enforcement arm, however I can imagine the inspections would be few and far between due to manpower issues.
I know for a fact that NYS DEC has been conducting inspections on Commericial autobody shops and informing them of the mandates I spoke of prior. I have asked the autobody supply distributor in town for something they have in writing or a link, but I have not seen anyone since. I see them about once every couple of weeks for my detailing supplies, so I should have more info in a week or so.
Sorry if I started a "rumor" I was trying to add to the conversation from what I know.
I will have more shortly, if you guys are interested.
HTH, Dean

tech69
03-01-2010, 10:24 PM
We are talking about the printed RULES that apply to body shops, of course there are variables that may be addressed when there's an inspection but it's impossible to know what they are until after a visit by the EPA. Adding your own opinion or someone else's rumor to the mix doesn't serve the learning process unless it has actually happened to you and you can speak from experience and even then all the variables may not come across and the information only serves to confuse the issue. If you're in the business of repairing cars AND you must follow the rules then get a copy of them and don't worry about what someone tells you other than the EPA.

well the guy didn't just decide to put speed bumps in his wash area for no reason. I saw that with my own two eyes.

Len
03-01-2010, 11:17 PM
The EPA does not conduct the inspections, they delegate to the state/states what the rules and mandates are. It is then up to the states to conduct and enforce these new rules.
They are unfunded mandates.
The states have the option to not take on the delegation of enforcing the mandates imposed by the federal goverment. They would then not reap the fines. All states are in a financial crisis so they want to find all the revenue they can, and the only state I know of not taking on the delagation is Maryland. In that case, the EPA would have to conduct the inspections and enforcement. The EPA does have an enforcement arm, however I can imagine the inspections would be few and far between due to manpower issues.
I know for a fact that NYS DEC has been conducting inspections on Commericial autobody shops and informing them of the mandates I spoke of prior. I have asked the autobody supply distributor in town for something they have in writing or a link, but I have not seen anyone since. I see them about once every couple of weeks for my detailing supplies, so I should have more info in a week or so.
Sorry if I started a "rumor" I was trying to add to the conversation from what I know.
I will have more shortly, if you guys are interested.
HTH, Dean

You can go to the web address for your region that is listed above and you can download the EPA rules for your state. The state laws are another matter and can probably be found separately.

dfox1234
03-02-2010, 06:20 PM
You can go to the web address for your region that is listed above and you can download the EPA rules for your state. The state laws are another matter and can probably be found separately.

Right, I understand that the state laws are another matter. I will try to make this as clear as I can.

The EPA is the federal Government. The EPA tells the states to enforce these new rules.
The states (I live in New York) then in turn take this list of new rules, go to the commercial bodyshops and tell them to shape up and follow these new rules.
This in turn leaves for some states to add and or modify (go above and beyond) some of these rules. I live in a NANNY state so, NYS Dept. of Enviornmental Conservation are enforcing these new rules, and they have added some of there own. According to there website, there are also some exemptions, not listed on the EPA website.
I can imagine that other states like California, Conn. New Jersey, New hampshire (other NANNY states) will also enforce these new rules and probably add some as well. The people who come to inspect your shop, in all likelyhood WILL NOT be from the federal EPA. They will most likely be from the state you live in.
Good Luck, Dean

Len
03-02-2010, 07:47 PM
Right, I understand that the state laws are another matter. I will try to make this as clear as I can.

The EPA is the federal Government. The EPA tells the states to enforce these new rules.
The states (I live in New York) then in turn take this list of new rules, go to the commercial bodyshops and tell them to shape up and follow these new rules.
This in turn leaves for some states to add and or modify (go above and beyond) some of these rules. I live in a NANNY state so, NYS Dept. of Enviornmental Conservation are enforcing these new rules, and they have added some of there own. According to there website, there are also some exemptions, not listed on the EPA website.
I can imagine that other states like California, Conn. New Jersey, New hampshire (other NANNY states) will also enforce these new rules and probably add some as well. The people who come to inspect your shop, in all likelyhood WILL NOT be from the federal EPA. They will most likely be from the state you live in.
Good Luck, Dean

It's my understanding that to get an exemption you need to apply for it. This is one reason that it pays to know the law because you may be able to avoid a lot of hassle if you get an exemption. I'm sure that many of the inspectors won'[t alert you to your ability to side step the law. One of the EPA exemptions that I've become aware of is that using only 3 oz. cups may give you an exemption which means that MANY of the other laws won't apply to you. I actually believe that you would not even be on the list to inspect if you have this exemption. I read a little about the 3 oz. exemption then my (savvy) supplier told be that if the inspector finds only 3 oz. cups in your shop you may be able to skirt the entire issue. Of course this would only be a factor in smaller shops.

Anayway, what are nanny states?

Mooch
03-02-2010, 07:53 PM
OPINION: San Francisco Is Nanny State U.S.A.
February 08, 2005|By Cinnamon StillwellThose who favor smaller government will likely be familiar with the term "nanny state." A nanny state is defined as "a government which tries to give too much advice or make too many laws about how people should live, especially about eating, smoking or drinking alcohol." Perhaps not coincidentally, nanny states and blue states tend to go hand in hand.

Indeed, if you're searching for the epitome of the ultimate nanny state, look no farther than San Francisco. With plenty of time on their hands and an exaggerated sense of self-importance, the 11 members of the San Francisco Board of Supervisors are obsessed with looking for new laws to pass and ordinances to introduce and gaining control over every aspect of citizens' lives. Although the City is famously libertine in its approach to certain behaviors, anything that fits into its "progressive" paradigm is fair game.


A favorite term of those who think the laws shouldn't apply to them .

Mooch

alaskajeff
03-02-2010, 09:09 PM
Right, I understand that the state laws are another matter. I will try to make this as clear as I can.

The EPA is the federal Government. The EPA tells the states to enforce these new rules.
The states (I live in New York) then in turn take this list of new rules, go to the commercial bodyshops and tell them to shape up and follow these new rules.
This in turn leaves for some states to add and or modify (go above and beyond) some of these rules. I live in a NANNY state so, NYS Dept. of Enviornmental Conservation are enforcing these new rules, and they have added some of there own. According to there website, there are also some exemptions, not listed on the EPA website.
I can imagine that other states like California, Conn. New Jersey, New hampshire (other NANNY states) will also enforce these new rules and probably add some as well. The people who come to inspect your shop, in all likelyhood WILL NOT be from the federal EPA. They will most likely be from the state you live in.
Good Luck, Dean

Dean is absolutely correct in how EPA typically operates, unless they have a particular interest in enforcing the rules themselves (they tend to do that on "superfund sites" and other high-visibility issues). Most states have MOAs (memorandums of agreement) for state DEC to enforce EPA regulations, in effect becoming agents for EPA. States are free to enforce their own rules as long as they are as strict or stricter than EPA standards. CA has been doing this for vehicle emissions for almost 40 years. Good luck is right-I hope everyone at ABS has better experiences with EPA than I have had.

Hey Len, can you get 3 ounce Dekups frames & liners?

Mooch
03-02-2010, 09:26 PM
When dealing with the EPA or DEP it is the luck of the draw . It will all depend on who comes to check . A friend had a new septic system installed with all the latest products .

Only thing was the tanks were not approved for this State .Result was removal and a $175,000 fine . It pays to double check everything you do .

They could have just let him remove the tanks and replace with ones approved as they had never been used .

Mooch :gloomy:

Len
03-02-2010, 10:28 PM
Right, I understand that the state laws are another matter. I will try to make this as clear as I can.

The EPA is the federal Government. The EPA tells the states to enforce these new rules.
The states (I live in New York) then in turn take this list of new rules, go to the commercial bodyshops and tell them to shape up and follow these new rules.
This in turn leaves for some states to add and or modify (go above and beyond) some of these rules. I live in a NANNY state so, NYS Dept. of Enviornmental Conservation are enforcing these new rules, and they have added some of there own. According to there website, there are also some exemptions, not listed on the EPA website.
I can imagine that other states like California, Conn. New Jersey, New hampshire (other NANNY states) will also enforce these new rules and probably add some as well. The people who come to inspect your shop, in all likelyhood WILL NOT be from the federal EPA. They will most likely be from the state you live in.
Good Luck, Dean

It's my understanding that to get an exemption you need to apply for it. This is one reason that it pays to know the law because you may be able to avoid a lot of hassle if you get an exemption. I'm sure that many of the inspectors won't alert you to your ability to side step the law. One of the EPA exemptions that I've become aware of is that using only 3 oz. cups may give you an exemption which means that MANY of the other laws won't apply to you. I actually believe that you would not even be on the list to inspect if you have this exemption. I read a little about the 3 oz. exemption then my (savvy) supplier told be that if the inspector finds only 3 oz. cups in your shop you may be able to skirt the entire issue. Of course this would only be a factor in smaller shops.

Anyway, what are nanny states?

tech69
03-03-2010, 01:17 AM
a nanny state is a state that wants total control over everything you do and to also take care of some from craddle to grave.

Len
03-03-2010, 08:11 AM
When dealing with the EPA or DEP it is the luck of the draw . It will all depend on who comes to check . A friend had a new septic system installed with all the latest products .

Only thing was the tanks were not approved for this State .Result was removal and a $175,000 fine . It pays to double check everything you do .

They could have just let him remove the tanks and replace with ones approved as they had never been used .

Mooch :gloomy:

That's pretty strange. I've never had problems with inspectors unless we gave them a hard time then you learn a lesson.

Mooch
03-03-2010, 10:47 AM
That's pretty strange. I've never had problems with inspectors unless we gave them a hard time then you learn a lesson.


And how often has your shop been inspected by the DEP or county ?

Mooch

Len
03-03-2010, 08:16 PM
And how often has your shop been inspected by the DEP or county ?

Mooch

The shop I'm in now was inspected once by the state and twice by my insurance company.

Mooch
03-03-2010, 08:38 PM
The shop I'm in now was inspected once by the state and twice by my insurance company.

I feel for you Len .

I get inspected by the DEP once a year . By the county once a year . By the township once a year . County inspects my pool once a year . My pool water gets inspected once a week .
My laundry room gets inspected once a year as does my bath house .
Almost forgot ..My well gets checked twice a year .
And when they change inspectors it can make a very big difference .

Mooch :gloomy:

Len
03-03-2010, 10:24 PM
I feel for you Len .

I get inspected by the DEP once a year . By the county once a year . By the township once a year . County inspects my pool once a year . My pool water gets inspected once a week .
My laundry room gets inspected once a year as does my bath house .
Almost forgot ..My well gets checked twice a year .
And when they change inspectors it can make a very big difference .

Mooch :gloomy:

I guess it's because I'm dealing with people's cars and you're dealing with the people. When I owned a health food store I had a lot more visits there but not so much with the body shop.

88GT
03-03-2010, 10:55 PM
I guess Im too far in BFE to get inspected :)
I did get inspected once by the constable, but that was because a nosey neighbor didnt realize I was on comercial property and the constable said I had a "top rate" place :)

Len
03-03-2010, 10:58 PM
I guess Im too far in BFE to get inspected :)

If you're not a registered body shop then you won't get inspected but if they catch you without being registered the fine can be quite heavy. I've heard one guy was fined $32K for not being registered but I don't know the whole story, he may have been dumping illegally for just gave the authorities a hard time.

88GT
03-03-2010, 11:00 PM
If you're not a registered body shop then you won't get inspected but if they catch you without being registered the fine can be quite heavy. I've heard one guy was fined $32K for not being registered but I don't know the whole story, he may have been dumping illegally for just gave the authorities a hard time.

I registered with the county. I did everything I needed to do

tech69
03-04-2010, 02:07 AM
you guys make me feel lucky cause I rent space in a shop and all I have to do is register with county and bar. Don't have to deal with epa personally. From what I see a few basics are metal storage lockers for paints, anything out of package and in a different container must be labled, no wetsand sludge in drainage, no priming out of booth, and that little labled can with bondo dust...the same bondo dust that's been in it for as long as I know. We comply. :)

dfox1234
03-04-2010, 10:40 PM
That's pretty strange. I've never had problems with inspectors unless we gave them a hard time then you learn a lesson.

Len,
I agree with you. If you are decent and professional with the inspectors, no matter where they are from, you will get good results. The rules coming into effect thru the federal EPA are more then likely the current rules or close, set by states such as California, New York, New Jersey. I think what this is meant to do is level the playing field somewhat on a national level. I would guess states that are a little less strict like Ohio (the most industrial friendly state in the country) will have to conform a lot more then the nanny states I mentioned above. The difference is I am willing to bet that states like Ohio, Tenn. and a few others are more business friendly then the nanny states.

Also, a nanny state is a state in which everything is so heavily regulated from no cellphones while driving, to carbon monoxide detector must be in every home, EVERY HOME, not just new ones. All homes!!!
My experience with all these laws is that people become numb to them and compliance actually falls. Look at the cellphone while driving law. The insurance industry predicted the accident rate would fall when the states started to enact this law. The accident rate remains unchanged. People are not complying with the law, People are way to overregulated and become apathetic.
Dean

Len
03-04-2010, 11:08 PM
Len,
I agree with you. If you are decent and professional with the inspectors, no matter where they are from, you will get good results. The rules coming into effect thru the federal EPA are more then likely the current rules or close, set by states such as California, New York, New Jersey. I think what this is meant to do is level the playing field somewhat on a national level. I would guess states that are a little less strict like Ohio (the most industrial friendly state in the country) will have to conform a lot more then the nanny states I mentioned above. The difference is I am willing to bet that states like Ohio, Tenn. and a few others are more business friendly then the nanny states.

Also, a nanny state is a state in which everything is so heavily regulated from no cellphones while driving, to carbon monoxide detector must be in every home, EVERY HOME, not just new ones. All homes!!!
My experience with all these laws is that people become numb to them and compliance actually falls. Look at the cellphone while driving law. The insurance industry predicted the accident rate would fall when the states started to enact this law. The accident rate remains unchanged. People are not complying with the law, People are way to overregulated and become apathetic.
Dean

This is about business and operating a business in a manor that doesn't cause health problems for people in your area. If your local politicians don't have the skill or funding to regulate pollutants then it's best to bring in the people that do. Having a "business friendly" environment may be good for business but if it's bad for the heath of the people then is it really a good thing? I don't think so and while many of us like to demonize our government it does serve many different purposes that benefit our population.

dfox1234
03-05-2010, 07:33 PM
This is about business and operating a business in a manor that doesn't cause health problems for people in your area. If your local politicians don't have the skill or funding to regulate pollutants then it's best to bring in the people that do. Having a "business friendly" environment may be good for business but if it's bad for the heath of the people then is it really a good thing? I don't think so and while many of us like to demonize our government it does serve many different purposes that benefit our population.

You are so right! , I agree with you on a few points. These bodyshops need to be regulated, and HEAVILY. I agree that these new rules will level the playing field and weed out the illegal shops, (no repair license, ghetto homemade paint booths, employees that are payed under the table off the books etc.) It is only right to see them all shut down. I think this will drive business to the professional shops (real paint booths, employees on the books instead of "helpers"). I think and hope in the very near future that you will have to be registered to even buy autobody supplies. I think that some people in business think that if they act "holier then thou:, and "talk the talk, but don't walk the walk" that they will automatically be in compliance, even though they have several violations. The inspections occurring in my area are going to deal with just this, My area is EPA region 2. Be legit all the way, or your not in compliance and you need to be shut down.
Good Luck, Dean

P.S. What is a demonize government?

easymoney
03-06-2010, 12:25 AM
dfox1234
are you saying the peple that operate a part time shop at home or who does body work as a hobby or works on his own cars should not be allowed to buy paint supplies unless he can put in a commericial paint booth and be regerstered with the state?

Len
03-06-2010, 12:34 AM
P.S. What is a demonize government?

When laws are put into place to protect the welfare of the citizens many people will call it Socialism or some other derogatory term because they are talking from the other side of the aisle. We should be focusing on the cost versus the benefit of such laws and not continually throw mud and the government.

I also believe that small shops should be made to comply in a "relative" manor. IOW the small shop shouldn't be made to purchase a store bought booth IF their homemade booth will perform in an adequate manor. The small shop may paint one or two cars a week while a large shop may paint 30 to 40 cars a week and the tools and equipment should reflect that reality. But if you make a living doing this type of work then you should be legal.

tech69
03-06-2010, 09:37 PM
You are so right! , I agree with you on a few points. These bodyshops need to be regulated, and HEAVILY. I agree that these new rules will level the playing field and weed out the illegal shops, (no repair license, ghetto homemade paint booths, employees that are payed under the table off the books etc.) It is only right to see them all shut down. I think this will drive business to the professional shops (real paint booths, employees on the books instead of "helpers"). I think and hope in the very near future that you will have to be registered to even buy autobody supplies. I think that some people in business think that if they act "holier then thou:, and "talk the talk, but don't walk the walk" that they will automatically be in compliance, even though they have several violations. The inspections occurring in my area are going to deal with just this, My area is EPA region 2. Be legit all the way, or your not in compliance and you need to be shut down.
Good Luck, Dean

P.S. What is a demonize government?

Wow! What side are you on? Geez, the idea is to be compaint not push out the little guys so only the big shops make it. From my exp, it's the little shops that have better quality due to lower volume.

tech69
03-06-2010, 09:43 PM
When laws are put into place to protect the welfare of the citizens many people will call it Socialism or some other derogatory term because they are talking from the other side of the aisle. We should be focusing on the cost versus the benefit of such laws and not continually throw mud and the government.

I also believe that small shops should be made to comply in a "relative" manor. IOW the small shop shouldn't be made to purchase a store bought booth IF their homemade booth will perform in an adequate manor. The small shop may paint one or two cars a week while a large shop may paint 30 to 40 cars a week and the tools and equipment should reflect that reality. But if you make a living doing this type of work then you should be legal.

Len, Ca has 12% of the nation's population yet 32% of the nation's welfare. This has all to do with not enforcing the work requirement rules. The eye raising numbers came about due to government itself. It seems to be out here on one side if you have nothing AND give up there's a million programs and subsidies for you and on the other hand if you have something there's a million programs that wants to enforce their rule on you, take your money, or pay exceededly for things that would cost much less in other areas.

Len
03-07-2010, 12:26 AM
Len, Ca has 12% of the nation's population yet 32% of the nation's welfare. This has all to do with not enforcing the work requirement rules. The eye raising numbers came about due to government itself. It seems to be out here on one side if you have nothing AND give up there's a million programs and subsidies for you and on the other hand if you have something there's a million programs that wants to enforce their rule on you, take your money, or pay exceededly for things that would cost much less in other areas.

Yes, the government is quite capable of mishandling any situation but remember, in this country YOU are the government and the leaders that YOU and your neighbors selected are helping create the situation you see around you. We have an immigration problem that won't be solved by sending people back, locking them up or punishing them. It also won't be solved by depriving them from health care or a decent living. We should be addressing the problems that make them come here in the first place and not bring their standard of living down HERE in our country so that we have poor, dirty, criminal immigrants as our neighbors. In the end this doesn't make government bad it makes us foolish for putting people in place that haven't addressed the true cause of this problem, poverty over the boarder, in an intelligent manor. I'd rather not address this issue in this forum but in the NATIONAL CONCERNS forum. So please keep this forum for health and safety issues as it relates auto body repairs and painting.

tech69
03-07-2010, 12:54 AM
I don't have much of a problem with these regulations but turning the epa loose in a recession is tasteless but that's beside the point. I abide so no troubles here, just saying. You don't have to love them, just meet their requirements and when they leave put the tainted donuts back in the garbage. 8)

Anyone giving those wads a hardtime are stupid. Smile and show em the door.

icrman
12-03-2010, 02:57 AM
Just make sure that when they paint a bridge or even lines on a road surface, that they are following the rules. I'm guessing Boeing is exempt. Its just for us small guys.

Let me take a guess here. I just bet the thousands of tons of crap comming out every JETLINERs tail end, every day in the us, is way more worse than all the paint shops in the world could be in a year. Someone needs to do a study and get back to the liberty robbers that keep removing more of our freedoms and SUPPLYS.

motomann883
12-05-2010, 11:14 PM
I was in my jobbers Saturday and they just put up a sign that Jan. 11 2011 you must be certified to purchase paint, but they told me they will certify me for free and just needed to see my guns and pictures of the spot were im painting and were I dispose of my waste. Sound pretty easy to get certified, the only problem I see is the 2 gallon rule

icrman
12-13-2010, 12:11 AM
Kinda like prohibition days again only with a new twist. I bet the thugs will soon figure out how to make some money on paint etc. We got some mighty evil people in control these days.
I'd just like to know where the ones are that take an oath to protect us from these freedom and right to happyness robbers otherwise known as domestic enemys, are?

Len
12-13-2010, 12:38 AM
Kinda like prohibition days again only with a new twist. I bet the thugs will soon figure out how to make some money on paint etc. We got some mighty evil people in control these days.
I'd just like to know where the ones are that take an oath to protect us from these freedom and right to happyness robbers otherwise known as domestic enemys, are?

If you want to talk politics please use the Break Room. We try to keep this part of the board for technical issues.

Hybrid killer
12-13-2010, 10:59 AM
What are you people affraid of? ...

An "Additional issue" was verbally given to you during the investigation on 11 November, 2010 in reference to documentation to indicate you meet the Rule: Section XXX-XXX DeMinimus Facilities or Sources (using less than X00 gallons per year of coatings and X00 gallons of solvents per year). On 12 November, 2010, you provided information that indicates you meet the requirements of the DeMinimus rule

tech69
12-17-2010, 02:20 AM
anyone who loves hot rods should be concerned about the epa. I've seen a number of auto body products having to change due to regulations which hasn't been such a bad thing but something to keep an eye on.

xtremekustomz
09-24-2012, 09:06 PM
Ok so first of all I've looked over the EPA rules and have a general understanding but there are a few things I need clarification on.

1. 3 oz cup rule. I know this rule is to regulate how much paint your are using. My question is this....say I spray a bumper and use the 3 oz of paint in the cup. I also have to clear the part also so technically am I breaking the rule?

2. Sanding- I see that all sanding has to be done inside of a "building" with at least 3 walls (I may be a little off on this one). What about any wet sanding? The only place I have to do this type of thing is in my driveway because I would flood my garage. Not to mention I live on a corner lot and my lawn drains into the area beside the street (not a ditch or culvert). Obviously that isn't good...

3. Detailing- Say I have to color sand and buff something or if someone wants a car buffed. Does this fall in any way under the new rules?

4. As a hobbyist you are allowed to do 2 cars a year. Is this by calendar year or just any time within a year?

Obviously I want to do things right and not cause much of an impact on the environment or the people that live nearby or myself. I really enjoy this hobby but I'm really starting to rethink it all. Local laws state that I can't run a business out of my house so really everything I've done up unto this point has been illegal because I have been paint in some way or another. A few months back I bought a bunch of pvc pipe, plastic, wire grate and paint booth filters so when I do a small job I can filter out some of the pollutants but of course it isn't up to code because it isn't UL certified. I just feel like alot of these laws are taking away my hobby. I can understand why the laws are put into effect. I've posted some pictures of some things that I've done including fiberglass work and things of the sort but it seems that legally I can't even do that. Where I lived before I moved here it wasn't a big issue and some of the body shops would actually let you use their facility if you wanted to paint something. Down here they won't even talk to you unless you are having work done and are paying them to do something. My girlfriends friend whos dad is a manager at a repair/paint shop asked me about painting her car (It's one of the shops I asked about using the booth before and they said no). She would supply the paint and I could use the shops booth to spray it on the weekend. Obviously my work must be better than the shops. I don't know...Maybe I just need to get back into woodworking and wash my hands of this hobby. Won't be long before they decide wood is harmful to the environment and you have to have a license to buy it and it has to be cut in an enclosed room.

Len
09-24-2012, 09:25 PM
Ok so first of all I've looked over the EPA rules and have a general understanding but there are a few things I need clarification on.

Don't worry about the EPA rules, you're a "hobbyist" and not a licensed shop. As long as your neighbors don't complain about the noise, dust or smell you should be fine. If you do ever get checked out the inspector will tell you what it will take to comply and how much time you have to do it.

style
09-24-2012, 11:17 PM
Don't worry about the EPA rules, you're a "hobbyist" and not a licensed shop. As long as your neighbors don't complain about the noise, dust or smell you should be fine. If you do ever get checked out the inspector will tell you what it will take to comply and how much time you have to do it.

i was inspected today they tagged me for the dumbest things my fire ext had no tag,my aerosol cans were not in an explosion proof cabinet and my msds sheets werent in spanish,that was about it then the jerk called pd and had me sited for no or expired registration on a customers car cause it had no plates on it(i had just buffed it) ... $3500 in fines later..:nono:

most of my shit just confused the hell out of him he sat there scratching his head and calling people for over2 hrs..

Len
09-25-2012, 06:11 AM
i was inspected today they tagged me for the dumbest things my fire ext had no tag,my aerosol cans were not in an explosion proof cabinet and my msds sheets werent in spanish,that was about it then the jerk called pd and had me sited for no or expired registration on a customers car cause it had no plates on it(i had just buffed it) ... $3500 in fines later..:nono:

most of my shit just confused the hell out of him he sat there scratching his head and calling people for over2 hrs..

Yes, but you're not a hobbyist, you're a production shop. Do you need a license to operate a shop in Texas? That's how the law knows you're there unless someone filed a complaint.

style
09-25-2012, 09:52 PM
Yes, but you're not a hobbyist, you're a production shop. Do you need a license to operate a shop in Texas? That's how the law knows you're there unless someone filed a complaint.

Yea 5 licenses ..dicks.. :gloomy:

xtremekustomz
09-26-2012, 03:33 PM
Don't worry about the EPA rules, you're a "hobbyist" and not a licensed shop. As long as your neighbors don't complain about the noise, dust or smell you should be fine. If you do ever get checked out the inspector will tell you what it will take to comply and how much time you have to do it.

I think it does apply to me though. These questions were asked on haps6h.com website:

Q: Is the painting of cars as a hobby at home applicable to the NESHAP?

A. A person who spray applies surface coating to more than two motor vehicles or pieces of mobile equipment per year is subject o the requirements that pertain to motor vehicle and mobile equipment regardless of whether compensation is received (§63.11169). Asking it another way, “If I paint three of my own cars in one year, does the rule apply to me?” The answer is yes.

Q: The Rule states that the spray application of coatings using a 3 oz capacity cup or less is not subject to Rule 6H. Does this essentially exempt mobile repair operations that use this size cup to perform coating outside of a building?

A. Yes, however, mobile repair operations meeting this exemption must still comply with all existing state environmental regulations. There are many mobile repair facilities that do use a cup size greater than 3 ounces. They need to comply with all the requirements in the NESHAP just like a brick and motor collision shop has to do.

I think I need to order some 3 oz cups and adapters for my guns and just hide my regular size cups. In the answer to the first question it says "two motor vehicles or pieces of mobile equipment per year." What if I'm not painting anything that pertains to an automobile? Sounds like a loophole to me! "Oh I'm sorry...I didn't know I couldn't do that" (obviously I know it isn't meant that way)

xtremekustomz
09-26-2012, 04:43 PM
i was inspected today they tagged me for the dumbest things my fire ext had no tag,my aerosol cans were not in an explosion proof cabinet and my msds sheets werent in spanish,that was about it then the jerk called pd and had me sited for no or expired registration on a customers car cause it had no plates on it(i had just buffed it) ... $3500 in fines later..:nono:

most of my shit just confused the hell out of him he sat there scratching his head and calling people for over2 hrs..

I know where you are coming from. Not that I get fined for the stuff but I work for the government and we have inspectors come all the time and write us up. We never really have anything major that they find at our site like others so they just find stupid stuff. I guess they have to justify their jobs somehow. Findings do however lower our bonuses that we get from the government so in turn I guess it does cost me money sometimes.

Len
09-26-2012, 09:14 PM
Q: Is the painting of cars as a hobby at home applicable to the NESHAP?
How do they know you exist if you're not licensed?




A. A person who spray applies surface coating to more than two motor vehicles or pieces of mobile equipment per year is subject o the requirements that pertain to motor vehicle and mobile equipment regardless of whether compensation is received (§63.11169). Asking it another way, “If I paint three of my own cars in one year, does the rule apply to me?” The answer is yes.
How do they know if you spray 2 cars or 22 cars unless you keep books on your work.


Q: The Rule states that the spray application of coatings using a 3 oz capacity cup or less is not subject to Rule 6H. Does this essentially exempt mobile repair operations that use this size cup to perform coating outside of a building?
Mobile operations that we know have some 3oz cups that they show when inspected but they also have larger cups that they use when nobody is looking.

A. Yes, however, mobile repair operations meeting this exemption must still comply with all existing state environmental regulations. There are many mobile repair facilities that do use a cup size greater than 3 ounces. They need to comply with all the requirements in the NESHAP just like a brick and motor collision shop has to do.
When you're in the business spraying paint you need to follow the local, state and federal laws regulating your business or pay the fine when you get caught.

easymoney
09-28-2012, 08:07 AM
what is to keep you from filling those 3 ounce cups over and over? that is like saying restricting beer cans to 6 ounces to keep people from getting so drunk.

xtremekustomz
09-28-2012, 08:18 PM
what is to keep you from filling those 3 ounce cups over and over? that is like saying restricting beer cans to 6 ounces to keep people from getting so drunk.

Well the rule is meant saying that you are only using a small amount of paint for rock chip repairs etc and not painting a whole vehicle. If they catch you refilling the cups so you don't have to be compliant with all other rules there can be fines. Of course they have to catch you doing it.

xtremekustomz
09-28-2012, 08:32 PM
How do they know you exist if you're not licensed?
The only way they would know is if someone turned me in. Which has somewhat happened already. I just want to have everything straight just in case I get a visitor.


How do they know if you spray 2 cars or 22 cars unless you keep books on your work.
They won't unless I get checked on/caught.

Mobile operations that we know have some 3oz cups that they show when inspected but they also have larger cups that they use when nobody is looking.
I've ordered some 3 oz cups and adapters for all my guns (except the ones that they don't make adapters for). Alot of stuff I do is small anyway and don't need a quart cup.
When you're in the business spraying paint you need to follow the local, state and federal laws regulating your business or pay the fine when you get caught.
I completely understand. That is why I am trying to do things the right way. I'm pretty sure all the shops around here would have a fit if they found out I was doing any of this stuff in my garage. I'm not taking business from them at all. Most of the stuff I do is for people I work with or friends out of town/state. People that would never be taking their vehicles to have stuff done anyway. But since they have to follow the rules I should too.

Len
09-28-2012, 09:27 PM
How do they know you exist if you're not licensed?
The only way they would know is if someone turned me in. Which has somewhat happened already. I just want to have everything straight just in case I get a visitor.


How do they know if you spray 2 cars or 22 cars unless you keep books on your work.
They won't unless I get checked on/caught.

Mobile operations that we know have some 3oz cups that they show when inspected but they also have larger cups that they use when nobody is looking.
I've ordered some 3 oz cups and adapters for all my guns (except the ones that they don't make adapters for). Alot of stuff I do is small anyway and don't need a quart cup.
When you're in the business spraying paint you need to follow the local, state and federal laws regulating your business or pay the fine when you get caught.
I completely understand. That is why I am trying to do things the right way. I'm pretty sure all the shops around here would have a fit if they found out I was doing any of this stuff in my garage. I'm not taking business from them at all. Most of the stuff I do is for people I work with or friends out of town/state. People that would never be taking their vehicles to have stuff done anyway. But since they have to follow the rules I should too.

When I started in the auto body business I cheated on taxes, on environmental issues, on insurance estimates, etc., etc. But that was a long time ago and it wasn't long before I found it a lot easier and more profitable to obey the law, get my business organized and pay my dues. If you intend on doing this type of work for a living then find out what it will take (in your area) to do it legally and you'll be more organized and less worried about things outside your shop. The cost of a legal operation can be quite small if it's approached intelligently and the actual work is usually the easiest part.

I had a good friend that became my business partner and his girl friend became our bookkeeper and she made us follow all the rules which I now see as the key to our success. You may not need a partner but you should hire a decent bookkeeper/accountant when you start to become a professional. In most areas of the country there are groups that can help you get organized or you can do a Google search for auto body associations that can help steer you in the right direction. I now know several people that started working out of the trunk of their cars and now have a half dozen vans on the road doing portable work and many shops that started small and are now quite successful large shops or owners that have shops in several locations because they followed the rules and were able to keep growing and profiting from their operations.

Advanced
10-25-2012, 05:12 AM
I am not an expert on legal matters. I did win the Small Business Environmental Stewardship Award from the EPA in 2009 for the nation. It is my understanding that the 3oz myth is not legal. No amount of paint can be sprayed outside of a legally designated spray area. Who ever started the 3oz story has given us a cut rope to hang onto. With that said every body breaks some law everyday. How they expect to enforce the rules is beyond my imagination. Unless the sale of all products are restricted it is impossible to catch back yard body shops. The legal shops are the only ones on the radar. They will not restrict the sale of products is my understanding. It would be too simple. They want fines because it pays for their inspectors. The fines will be heavy it sounds like. That will crush the semi legal operations and allow the next generation of shops to grow and fill the void which makes for a new group to fine and so on and so on. Either get legal or hide. Don't go half way or you will get to ride the merry-go-down.......

xtremekustomz
10-30-2012, 09:03 PM
I am not an expert on legal matters. I did win the Small Business Environmental Stewardship Award from the EPA in 2009 for the nation. It is my understanding that the 3oz myth is not legal. No amount of paint can be sprayed outside of a legally designated spray area. Who ever started the 3oz story has given us a cut rope to hang onto. With that said every body breaks some law everyday. How they expect to enforce the rules is beyond my imagination. Unless the sale of all products are restricted it is impossible to catch back yard body shops. The legal shops are the only ones on the radar. They will not restrict the sale of products is my understanding. It would be too simple. They want fines because it pays for their inspectors. The fines will be heavy it sounds like. That will crush the semi legal operations and allow the next generation of shops to grow and fill the void which makes for a new group to fine and so on and so on. Either get legal or hide. Don't go half way or you will get to ride the merry-go-down.......

http://www.epa.gov/region2/auto/docs/6H_rule.pdf

Page 10. Straight from the EPA website.