TheCoatingStore.com

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 31 to 41 of 41

Thread: Focusing Your Attention Where?

  1. #31
    dusty-ole-spraygun Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Len
    In auto restoration this same concept applies in many ways. When board or block sanding you need to transfer your focus to the place where the tool contacts the surface. Watch and feel the action and it's effect on what you're doing and adjust your position, pressure, angle, grit etc. to get you the result you want. Early in the filling process it's not as critical as it is later when the more slight variations in the surface are more difficult to decipher.

    When spraying paint you need to focus on the texture of the paint you're applying to the surface as it's being applied. One of the things that a supplied air breathing system allows you to do is to relax and enjoy the experience (and the challenge) of proper spraying without being uncomfortable or having to move or leave the room too quickly to save your life.

    When color sanding and polishing hardened paint into a beautiful glass-like surface you need to be quite aware of the results your actions are having on the surface. The right tools, materials and techniques all have a place (or places) where you should be focusing your attention and that is almost always where they are most effecting the finish you're trying to achieve.


    this is a really good post Len- what I've noticed is this- it's easier to master painting and buffing skills, but it's very difficult to master body filler sanding/blocking/board skills. I've seen bodymen with 30 years experience struggle with sanding filler- the problem is, every surface on each car is a different slope and shape to sand. Very few if any, are perfectly flat or round. Featheredging and blending filler into the sheetmetal, is a difficult job and hard to accomplish. The bodyman is way ahead, if he can bolt on/weld on a new panel, and just paint it- both in cost and time and materials. Often times it's MUCH cheaper, to just replace the panel.

    basically I've grown to hate bondo/filler work, it's a real PITA

    the main problem I've noticed is, body fillers are too hard for the job
    of sanding. They have to be hard and tough when cured, to last in an outdoor vehicle body environment against the elements- but the same quality that makes them last, makes them a mother to sand and feather

    what someone needs to invent, is a body filler that sands just like DRYWALL SPACKLING. Ever do some sheet rock repairs, and notice how easy that stuff sands and feathers ? I find myself thinking, "I wish bondo sanded this easy on the car". Just wipe spackling over a hole in a wall, when it dries, it sands easily flat with a small hand block- paint it with a brush- presto- the hole is fixed. Multiple layers can be applied with ease. It's almost "too easy" to sand.

    that's what needs to be invented for auto body- a filler that requires no hardener, air dries, that sands EASILY. Body fillers tend to be hard as concrete after one day of curing- and if they are sanded/filed when still soft, yes it's easier to shape them, but the file or sandpaper clogs right up- the filler cures further and then shrinks later on- showing the bodywork.

    I've done large areas of sheetrock with spackling compound and it's lasted 10+ years and still can't see it. Yet any body repair on a car, I can pick out with my eye after a few years- no matter how "good" the work, eventually it shinks and you can see sandscratches, feather edges, etc.

    this is going to sound wacky and funny, but to be honest I'm actually tempted to try some spackling on a fender- just because it would be so much easier to sand ! No doubt it would not work, due to absorbing moisture outside soaking into it. I did repair a large area in my bathroom with spackling, and actually used my autobody airboard and block to sand/finish it-after being painted with water resistant bathroom paint and a roller, it still has not come through- even though it is hit with water and steam almost daily- it's a wall in the shower area, above the tub- and I did that repair back in 1994.

    another issue is, the paints have become too toxic for auto body repair. Len, you mentioned the supplied air and having to act quick to save your life without one. A person who was not a bodyman, would think that's simply ridiculous, to work with that stuff. When we have to paint cars in space suits similar to germ warfare suits, there's obviously a problem there. They need to come out with less toxic paints that a charcoal mask can handle, and do away with these toxic urethanes and polyurethanes already. These toxic paints are not "modern technology"- they are 60 year old German technology, invented when they didn't know any better. In 2008 it just seems dumb having to spray toxic paint on a car, and risk your life- unless we buy a $500 air supply.

    the hardeners are the nasty stuff- I sprayed some sythetic enamel w/hardener last week, then cleaned the gun with lacquer thinner thoroughly- just having the spray gun in my trunk after it was cleaned, it gave off fumes into the interior of my car and was making me dizzy and my breathing got funny- when I picked up my son from school nearly 2 hours later, he smelled it and said "what is that smell, it's giving me a headache" after about 5 seconds in the car. That's how nasty that stuff is- just the RESIDUE in the gun, in an enclosed area, does a number on a human being. We had to drive home with the windows down- that doesn't happen with straight lacquer or straight enamel- I've had spray guns recently used in the trunk, after using non-ISO paints, and driving in the car I can't smell anything.

    it's the ISO hardeners, they have to go, and be replaced by a more user-friendly system- to be honest I would not care if they outlawed the ISO stuff. Deadly chemicals in spray paints just seem dumb to me- by definition the paints become aerosols, and create a deadly gas chamber wherever they are used. The paradox is, they outlawed lead based paints, to go to ISO paints- when in fact the lead paints were not as deadly as the ISO paints.

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    27,561

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dusty-ole-spraygun
    it's the ISO hardeners, they have to go, and be replaced by a more user-friendly system- to be honest I would not care if they outlawed the ISO stuff. Deadly chemicals in spray paints just seem dumb to me- by definition the paints become aerosols, and create a deadly gas chamber wherever they are used. The paradox is, they outlawed lead based paints, to go to ISO paints- when in fact the lead paints were not as deadly as the ISO paints.
    Fortunately or unfortunately the paint with the isos is a lot better than paint without it. Stays on better, doesn't age as quickly, easier to repair etc. etc. The unfortunate part is the price of the material and the price of the tools needed to use it properly is higher.

    The supplied air breathing systems are actually less expensive than the paint for most high quality products and it's a lot more important to stay healthy than trying to save $ on safety equipment. When we purchased our breathing system 20 years ago it cost almost $2000 while the ones now cost 1/5 as much and put out more air. While the paint is toxic while spraying it's unlike lead paint because it's no longer toxic after it hardens. Lead paint is toxic forever and even the overspray dust that contains lead and settles on everything can be toxic. The overspray from hardened paints will no longer contain isos after it hardens.

    As far as filler goes I think you'll find that Spackle will not bond well with the surface and your repair would be very short lived. What we've found is that using the better, more expensive body filler makes the sanding a lot easier. Most of the less expensive stuff tends to be difficult to level. Also, if the filler is worked before it fully hardens it can be cheese grated then sanded quite easily. Up until a few years ago we used $10 a gallon filler and I decided to try Rage Gold and Rage Extreme and we've been using them ever since. Sure it cost more but it works more easily and improves the result.

    Use a cheese grater shown below, when the filler becomes like hard cheese, it will level it quickly, cleanly and cheaply then you can finish it with sandpaper. We've found that the curved 10" blade works best by pulling it toward you, it cuts the filler down quickly and cleanly. If you use this blade while the filler is too soft it will clog the blade and if you use it after the filler is too hard it does very little but when you do it at the right time it comes off like spaghetti leveling the surface quickly without generating dust.


  3. #33
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Dundalk, MD
    Posts
    264

    Default

    kinda odd, i think, but this is the first time i've read this thread and im actually surprised its not one of the first ones i had read when i signed up...

    anyways, i completely understand where ALL of you come from in your posts. As far as me in the paint booth, i can start the fan, come in with the paint gun and as soon as i get ready to pull the trigger, i can almost feel myself STANDING behind me, watching the BIG picture, not concentrating just on the paint laying down, but everything ive already hit as well as what lies ahead. complete focus actually has helped me go from a paint job that is, "EH, that looks ok...", to something that seems to ME as a piece of art...
    maybe not to all, especially people that have been spraying for years.

    As for the body work portion, i can't get a area bigger then a quarter to be completely smooth to save my life. small dings i can get, no problem, first shot. bigger jobs, i will either wind up with waves bigger then the ocean or an edge where the body work stops....maybe i AM focusing my attention in the wrong area. kinda wish i could figure that one out.........

  4. #34
    88GT Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bunkystrimline
    kinda odd, i think, but this is the first time i've read this thread and im actually surprised its not one of the first ones i had read when i signed up...

    anyways, i completely understand where ALL of you come from in your posts. As far as me in the paint booth, i can start the fan, come in with the paint gun and as soon as i get ready to pull the trigger, i can almost feel myself STANDING behind me, watching the BIG picture, not concentrating just on the paint laying down, but everything ive already hit as well as what lies ahead. complete focus actually has helped me go from a paint job that is, "EH, that looks ok...", to something that seems to ME as a piece of art...
    maybe not to all, especially people that have been spraying for years.

    As for the body work portion, i can't get a area bigger then a quarter to be completely smooth to save my life. small dings i can get, no problem, first shot. bigger jobs, i will either wind up with waves bigger then the ocean or an edge where the body work stops....maybe i AM focusing my attention in the wrong area. kinda wish i could figure that one out.........
    One mistake that is common is trying to keep the repair area too small. The filler should go a good ways past what you "see" as the "dent" and become transparent as it reaches the edge of the filler area. Sounds like you also sand too much before going to a finer grit, not leaving enough filler to feather out. Improper blocking causes waves

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    84

    Default Kinda like tattooing

    This is an inspirational thread as tough times of "near" perfection just isn't quite enough. I can relate the feeling of auto-body work to tattooing. I apprenticed and worked in a tattoo shop for about 3 years. Quit cause the money wasn't worth the guilt of being a "pain doctor". When I'm sanding, or trying to feel the paint hit the surface before it's shot, it feels much like using the re-coil from the armature bar on a tattoo machine. I'm no pro, but it's fun to pretend I'm one when I'm working, and seems to help me obtain results that are above my original intentions.
    Rob

  6. #36

    Default

    "Be the ball."

    Good post. Some good thoughts...


    Mark G

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    west branch, michigan
    Posts
    172

    Default

    man, i've surfed this forum for some time and got a lot of good knowledge, but didnt even notice this thread at the top!LOL. awesome advise from all. i see my thoughts to myself on spraying were somewhat correct. i was, for a while, spending too much time watching in front of the gun to get the proper overlap and not where i had been to see the ruesults and adjust, causing the coats to be too thin and having to go back over the pass i just completed. now to practice these techniques ya'll shared on sanding.
    i do a LOT of woodworking and one thing i like to keep in mind is that no matter how many times i build something, and it goes for painting,too, i have to remember i am practicing a skill.also to remember that no matter how long i do it for, theres always more to be learned. thanks again for sharing the great advice all!

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    159

    Default

    Great post. I needed to read this, as I am over thinking spraying this Corvette. I need to just relax and take my time an it will turn out OK.

  9. #39

    Default

    Great advice this is.

    Thanks Len. Hope more people pay attention and focus.
    Devilbiss GFG-670+, Ingersoll-Rand SS5L5.

  10. #40
    peterr90 Guest

    Default

    I think that would fall into learning from your mistakes. No matter what someone shows you you're still gonna have to go thru the trial and error.
    Last edited by Len; 10-06-2012 at 08:46 AM. Reason: Remove Spam

  11. #41
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    27,561

    Default


    Quote Originally Posted by peterr90 View Post
    I think that would fall into learning from your mistakes. No matter what someone shows you you're still gonna have to go thru the trial and error.
    That's very true but have you ever done something over and over then someone comes along and tells you one little trick that moves your skill level significantly?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •