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Thread: Process question

  1. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronf View Post
    I think you are over complicating this.

    That might be an understatement. I will get it scrubbed off and get the shop cleaned out/re-masked and go to town. I appreciate the advice.

  2. #17
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    Dec 2015
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    You stated,
    "Last time it was thickening in the cup by the time I was ready to reload the gun. For instance it is 78 in the shop right now, but the outdoor temp is 92 and climbing, am I not better off to prep the shop and just wait for the morning when it will be 73 in the shop and 65 outside?"

    Yes you will be better off waiting to the A.M. if your not wanting to rush application.

    It is the nature of high build primers to have a short pot life. Never mix more than what you intend to use in a single shot. You can measure out another container for the next shot but DO NOT add hardner until you are ready to mix and shoot. You do not want that product setting up in your gun.

  3. #18

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    I did not realize that bit about the primer pot life. I will be sure to keep that in mind in the future. I am good with waiting until the morning to spray. That gives me the afternoon to clean everything and get the shop into good condition, hang a couple more lights at the back.

  4. #19
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    Dec 2015
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Niesen View Post
    That might be an understatement. I will get it scrubbed off and get the shop cleaned out/re-masked and go to town. I appreciate the advice.
    You need the Falcon cleaned and sitting in the booth (also cleaned) as quickly as possible to allow time for acclimation of surface tempts which can take up to 24+ hours. If there is a wide range of temps between where you mix and store your products in comparison to booth temps, then move your products into the booth for storage prior to mixing.

    One of the problems with a negative pressure system is you may be moving dust and debris that sits inside the shop (atop light fixtures, benches, tools, etc) undisturbed and moving those particulates between intake and exhaust. This debris has the potential to land on your project, so just make sure your shop is as clean as possible. A filtered intake and exhaust from a positive pressure ventilation system (PPV), closed loop or open, exhaust the debris from the work zone (including latent particles from spray application) which gives you visibility and reduces the amount of particulates that can hit a painted surface. A booth your sizes calls for around 32,000 cfm for a PPV system. Don't let this discourage you from going forward as these design elements are for an environment meant for a professional spraying booth. I have car buddies who spray in fully open overhead door environments that do outstanding work, they just have to spend more time color sanding than I do.

  5. #20

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    The only way I can get that kind of cfm is to divert my swamp cooler in the garage from the house and run it on vent only, plus add the fans and open the bay door. I would really prefer the outbound air at least hit some filters to get rid of as many of the solids as possible. I know negative pressure isn't ideal, but it seems to be the best compromise I can make right now. I can kick the extractor fan on high to increase the flow some more,and I'll turn it on and mop an hour before I shoot, then dampen the floor just before.

    If it goes completely awry I'll color sand, I hope to avoid it, it's just a driver but I'll burn that bridge when it gets here. A little de nib and polish would be alright.

  6. #21
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    Dec 2015
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Niesen View Post
    The only way I can get that kind of cfm is to divert my swamp cooler in the garage from the house and run it on vent only, plus add the fans and open the bay door. I would really prefer the outbound air at least hit some filters to get rid of as many of the solids as possible. I know negative pressure isn't ideal, but it seems to be the best compromise I can make right now. I can kick the extractor fan on high to increase the flow some more,and I'll turn it on and mop an hour before I shoot, then dampen the floor just before.

    If it goes completely awry I'll color sand, I hope to avoid it, it's just a driver but I'll burn that bridge when it gets here. A little de nib and polish would be alright.
    Ben,

    I understand what your trying to accomplish and I'm not trying to make this harder for you. I am only trying to get you prepared for what "may" lie ahead after shooting the Falcon in your shop. The above scenario is for a professional quality booth, any improvements you can make to your existing environment will improvement the final outcome of your spray. I personally do not know how to calculate a negative air flow environment as my background and experience is in PPV. My suggestion would be to filter the environment the best you can, clean the entire spray area the best you can, acclimate your sheet metal to booth tempts, spray early in the morning for best low temp results and be prepared to do some denibbing and polishing. Another few suggestions; get the bottom of car up as high as reasonably possible (18+ inches), provide enough lower horizontal lighting to reflect side panels so you can observe your spray patterns and amount of material being applied. You have to be able to observe your pattern as you shoot. I doubt this is going to go awry as long as you adhere to these few basic principles.

  7. #22

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    That could have gone better.

    Loaded up the Devilbiss starting line 1.3 with primer, used the harbor freight knock of PPS 1 system for the first time. Gun started sputtering just like I had a clog in the cup cap. I went ahead and shot that as best I could, pulled the adapter put on the stock cup assuming it was something to do with the cheap junk adapter system, loaded up a full cup and started spraying again. Still sputtered, alright something is up with the gun. Dumped the paint, pulled it, gave it a quick clean (I had just done an extensive clean on this gun yesterday) reassembled, tried again, sputter. I think the seals on it are going.

    So I looked at options, I could run primer through my brand new Sagola (thanks Len!), or I could try the harbor freight cheapo gun I bought for lacquer on furniture... Went the HF route. Suddenly my problems dissapeared and I was getting smooth layout. The gun is no where near as nice to use, but it sprayed fine so I don't mind.

    Unfortunately the hood and one front fender are not very nice due to the gun debacle. See the pics. Guess I am back to blocking those with 150/220/320/400/600. I think the rest of the car will take 320 though. I really hoped this would go better... but it could have gone a whole lot worse.

    Thanks for the booth setup advice, I was much more able to see what was going on and was more confident being close to the panel.
    0721211228.jpg

    Devilbiss issues (even had some paint leak out the top of the gun because I was so focused on the sputter)
    0721211229.jpg

    Harbor freight finish

    0721211229b.jpg

    I have probably a pint of primer left, so I am hoping to avoid cutting through anywhere. And I would really like to be done with primer

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
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    DeVilbiss makes some great spray guns but the "Starting Line" is at the bottom of the list. I usually recommend the DeVilbiss Finishline for primer but it costs more than the Starting Line and the 1.3 is pretty small for filler primer, I usually recommend a 1.4 or larger depending on the primer being sprayed.

  9. #24
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    Nov 2005
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    You can spray primer with your Sagola 4600 but the fluid tip is probably too small and a good cleaning would be critical.

  10. #25

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    I didn't mean to sound down on the devilbiss, it's done a lot of work. If I can figure out how to repair it I will get it back together, it still has value even if it is just for spraying lacquer on wood.

  11. #26
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    Dec 2015
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    If you were shooting that Upol primer unreduced that 1.3 tip is way too small! I shoot standard epoxy primers (5% reduced) with a 1.5 tip and filler primers with a 1.8 to 2.2 depending on reduction. I suspect that HF was a cannon, which got you buy. Don't discount that Finish line, it's a good gun.

  12. #27

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    Per recommendation I was shooting it reduced at 4:1:1 The only tips I have for that gun are 1.3 and 1.8. The HF gun has a 1.4, so it may have been a better fit from the get go.

    I started sanding it a bit this evening. It is knocking down quickly at 400 grit so I think everything is going to be fine. The real rough spots I tackled with 220 to start. I do have some very thin edges in though. I am trying my best to avoid them but did manage to break through once so far, it is really tough not to hit the edges, but still sand in an x and stay out of plane with the ground. Can I hit these spots with reduced primer with the 400 grit marks that are there, and smooth out, or do I need to take them back to 220 and spray more high build?

    Is my best solution to source an epoxy sealer at this point? I am trying hard not to spend any more money on someone else's car, but if it is make or break I will go pick up however much.

    And am I ok to use soft blocks and soft interface pads at this point? Substrate should be straight.

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
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    olympia,wa
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    1,671

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Niesen View Post
    Per recommendation I was shooting it reduced at 4:1:1 The only tips I have for that gun are 1.3 and 1.8. The HF gun has a 1.4, so it may have been a better fit from the get go.

    I started sanding it a bit this evening. It is knocking down quickly at 400 grit so I think everything is going to be fine. The real rough spots I tackled with 220 to start. I do have some very thin edges in though. I am trying my best to avoid them but did manage to break through once so far, it is really tough not to hit the edges, but still sand in an x and stay out of plane with the ground. Can I hit these spots with reduced primer with the 400 grit marks that are there, and smooth out, or do I need to take them back to 220 and spray more high build?

    Is my best solution to source an epoxy sealer at this point? I am trying hard not to spend any more money on someone else's car, but if it is make or break I will go pick up however much.

    And am I ok to use soft blocks and soft interface pads at this point? Substrate should be straight.
    i've shot a ton of product through those hf guns. mostly primers, epoxy, or equipment enamels. it'll do just fine shooting reduced primer with the 1.4 tip. yes, you can dust on a little more primer on those thin spots if you want. i'd wait till the whole car is sanded first and evaluate how much burn through there is. if it's pretty minimal, i like a dedicated 2k urethane sealer right before paint. it goes on super thin and smooth. by the time you clean your gun you'll be ready to shoot the color.
    b marler

  14. #29
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    Nov 2005
    Posts
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    We just received a special from one of our suppliers for the new DeVilbiss Finishline gun. We are selling it for $199 plus shipping and it come with a free hose.

    It's not online yet so you would need to call to order 609-859-3670

    dss1.jpg
    dss2.jpg

  15. #30
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    Dec 2015
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmarler View Post
    i've shot a ton of product through those hf guns. mostly primers, epoxy, or equipment enamels. it'll do just fine shooting reduced primer with the 1.4 tip. yes, you can dust on a little more primer on those thin spots if you want. i'd wait till the whole car is sanded first and evaluate how much burn through there is. if it's pretty minimal, i like a dedicated 2k urethane sealer right before paint. it goes on super thin and smooth. by the time you clean your gun you'll be ready to shoot the color.
    Ben,

    bmarler gives all the advice you need, he is dead on as always. I would invest in either a dedicated sealer, in which you would shoot a single coat prior to shooting bc/cc all wet on wet, or a quality epoxy primer such as PPG DPLF (not filler/primer), over reduce your primer to the point you can lay it smooth with a 1.3 tip as you are using it in place of a dedicated sealer, as soon as it flashed off go straight to bc/cc, all in the same session. Just remember when you over reduce you need to extend your flash off time from the TDS (by 2 or 3 times) or you will be prone to vapor pop.
    When you refer to "thin areas" of blocking, I don't worry about break throughs as I am more concerned with panel being straight and properly feathered. Break through areas will be covered by your sealer coat, without a sealer coat you run the risk of ghosting or bc product not adhering to direct metal. At this point you can skip the sealer coat if you go back and dust in those areas of metal break throughs and go straight to bc/cc after abrading the surface with 400-600g wet, I prefer 600 myself (regardless of what TDS states). Yes, a soft block is no problem as you are feathering at this point as opposed to shaping the surface.
    You may benefit from taping off hard peak edges. After blocking pull tape and finish off peaks with a higher grade paper. I do this on all spray filler shaping and color block sanding to protect edges. Attached is a pic in which I am color sanding/blocking with tape protecting the edges (notice the tape just over laps onto the top of panel). After panel is knocked down I pull the tape and concentrate on the edge with a higher grit. Yes, this is a tedious and time consuming way to do body work unless you are shooting, no pun intended, for a show quality finish.l

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