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Thread: Process question

  1. #46
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    Itís always good to have a dedicated hose for paint. Keeps it clean and dry. That Omni product can be sensitive to contamination for sure. Iíve not used it as a sealer though, only as a base for my urethane primer.
    Iíve seen almost the exact reaction you have, and my remedy was to clean, scuff and apply either 2k urethane primer or 2k urethane sealer to lock everything down so I didnít have issues with the top coat.
    Iíd do as Ronf said, let it harden, then work the surface. Only thing Iíd do different is apply urethane sealer before base. The Omni mp 235 works well over the 170 epoxy.
    I know it sucks to add another product, so I donít blame you if you want to just try base. Just be sure to stop if it doesnít lay down nice over those iffy areas.
    b marler

  2. #47

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    The "fuzz" was sort of self resolving, it was grabbing little rag fragments so I just ran the whole car over with 600 grit wet. It went pretty quickly and let me find a couple little flaws I wouldn't have found otherwise.

    I cut into the next layer down of primer in a few spots on the hood, but no bare metal, I was real careful around the trouble spots. Weirdly I had almost no orange peel on the side panels, only on the ones that face up. That tells me it's a technique thing, maybe I had the gun to close on the flat places.

    I feel like it is good to go. I have it wiped down now, it is too hot and humid to shoot so I will wait until morning, degrease, tack and go to town. I think I am going to try a spray out and mess with the fluid settings. I need to figure the gun out and don't want the clearcoat to run away.

    This project has been a lesson. I was originally planning on laying paint Monday, now planning on Friday. The extra steps will pay off.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Niesen View Post
    The "fuzz" was sort of self resolving, it was grabbing little rag fragments so I just ran the whole car over with 600 grit wet. It went pretty quickly and let me find a couple little flaws I wouldn't have found otherwise.

    I cut into the next layer down of primer in a few spots on the hood, but no bare metal, I was real careful around the trouble spots. Weirdly I had almost no orange peel on the side panels, only on the ones that face up. That tells me it's a technique thing, maybe I had the gun to close on the flat places.

    I feel like it is good to go. I have it wiped down now, it is too hot and humid to shoot so I will wait until morning, degrease, tack and go to town. I think I am going to try a spray out and mess with the fluid settings. I need to figure the gun out and don't want the clearcoat to run away.

    This project has been a lesson. I was originally planning on laying paint Monday, now planning on Friday. The extra steps will pay off.
    good deal. i must have misunderstood your issues. i thought it was a sort of fisheye type thing, not just the fuzzy finish.
    extra careful prep is always worth the time. after the paint is on nobody regrets the extra prep work.
    b marler

  4. #49

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    There were definitely fish eyes. The fuzz came in a later post

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Niesen View Post
    There were definitely fish eyes. The fuzz came in a later post
    Back in the days of acrylic lacquer we used "fisheye eliminator" added to the paint to help solve fisheye problems but it cause more orange peel so we only used it when we had to. With today's acrylic urethane we use U-POL Fisheye Eliminator and it does a great job without causing any other problems. Big improvement over the old type of eliminator.


  6. #51
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    "Weirdly I had almost no orange peel on the side panels, only on the ones that face up. That tells me it's a technique thing, maybe I had the gun to close on the flat places."

    Vertical surface will have more flow characteristics as opposed to a horizontal surface, so no surprize. Now that you are ready for bc/cc I think a few pointers are worth repeating, 1) try and raise the vehicle as to better observe your application. Even if it is just 4 or 5 inches it will make a substantial difference when spraying your vertical surface. 2) I know you added more lighting, just make sure these lights well cover your side panel surfaces so you may observe spray pattern application as you shoot. 3) unfold and "fluff" your tack rag well and apply lightly to the surface. 4) hit a few panels prior to getting onto your car so you have a better understanding of what the gun is doing. That Sagola is a professional production gun which is meant to be shot in quick order, so observe and learn your hand speed vs coverage on a single pass so you are not dusting (too fast) or over building (to slow) the product on the panel. 5) be aware of and maintain your DTP application to avoid dusting or building of product. I have shot with many brands of high end guns and can tell you this is the easiest gun transition I have ever experienced. Keep in mind when shooting your base coat it will have a thinner viscosity in comparison to what you have been shooting on this project and you will need to adjust your hand speed. For bc I initially run my Sagola full pattern width, 29 psi and back off my fluid flow by 1/2 to 3/4 turn from wide open (allows me too slow down just a tad with the 1.3 tip). While this set up works for me it may not be your ideal settings for your comfortable speed application, so test and adjust as needed.

    Lastly have fun with the experience. All the hard work is mostly behind you and now get too see the results of this hard work. Keep us posted and provide pics as your progress.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronf View Post
    "Weirdly I had almost no orange peel on the side panels, only on the ones that face up. That tells me it's a technique thing, maybe I had the gun to close on the flat places."

    Vertical surface will have more flow characteristics as opposed to a horizontal surface, so no surprize. Now that you are ready for bc/cc I think a few pointers are worth repeating, 1) try and raise the vehicle as to better observe your application. Even if it is just 4 or 5 inches it will make a substantial difference when spraying your vertical surface. 2) I know you added more lighting, just make sure these lights well cover your side panel surfaces so you may observe spray pattern application as you shoot. 3) unfold and "fluff" your tack rag well and apply lightly to the surface. 4) hit a few panels prior to getting onto your car so you have a better understanding of what the gun is doing. That Sagola is a professional production gun which is meant to be shot in quick order, so observe and learn your hand speed vs coverage on a single pass so you are not dusting (too fast) or over building (to slow) the product on the panel. 5) be aware of and maintain your DTP application to avoid dusting or building of product. I have shot with many brands of high end guns and can tell you this is the easiest gun transition I have ever experienced. Keep in mind when shooting your base coat it will have a thinner viscosity in comparison to what you have been shooting on this project and you will need to adjust your hand speed. For bc I initially run my Sagola full pattern width, 29 psi and back off my fluid flow by 1/2 to 3/4 turn from wide open (allows me too slow down just a tad with the 1.3 tip). While this set up works for me it may not be your ideal settings for your comfortable speed application, so test and adjust as needed.

    Lastly have fun with the experience. All the hard work is mostly behind you and now get too see the results of this hard work. Keep us posted and provide pics as your progress.
    Great information Ron. You made two points that I push all the time HEIGHT & LIGHT.

  8. #53

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    Someone had mentioned early in the thread that raising the car would help. I put it up on jackstands after I read this, made a lot of stuff easier, especially blocking. I can barely bend over so getting the car high was a game changer. The only slight difficulty was getting to the center of the hood with the gun, but I just set up my 12" stool on one side and used it, then slid it under the car.

    Today was a bit of a debacle. I noticed a few spots in the primer this morning while I was doing final wipe down, and managed to cut into the metal. I cussed myself for a moment, thought about just leaving it then had a brain wave. Pulled out my air brush, made 15 ml of epoxy and fixed the spot. Let it dry while I was doing other stuff, cut in the edges off it with 600 and went on my merry way.

    I watched a youtube video last night that suggested doing a wet coat with PPG base to start. So when I started my first coat I laid it on, was really dang happy with the results then BAM fish eyes everywhere... what? so I went over the whole car with wax and grease remover for the third time, sanded the base back and then it occurred to me " I am putting it on too heavy and the surface tension is causing it to pull..." I shot a tack coat, then 1 medium coat and it was looking great. Everything was going fine, I was on the second to last panel at the back and lost focus for a split second leaving me way to close and put a curtain at the bottom
    of the panel. No big deal, whipped out the 600 grit, knocked it down, blended it in and threw on my drop coat. Looked good, no tiger striping was evident.

    Time to shoot clear, tacked the car off and away we go! Started with a medium coat, not quite full gloss, let it flash while I prepped enough material to do a wet coat, played with the gun settings, checked the clock and started on round 2. Saw a bit of dust, figured there was nothing I could do about it and just kept on going. The gun sprays clear effortlessly. I mixed 20% slow reducer in the gun and was mindful not to run it, made sure I went past the gaps, made sure I was keeping the wet edge. Every time I crossed sides of the car I topped off the gun. I really can't say enough good about the Sagola, I always have gun problems and this was just effortless.

    After dropping the second coat I left the garage to let the clear cloud clear. Pulled off my incredibly sticky Tyvek suit, rammed a sandwich down my gullet and went out to get a better look at what was going on. The coat was smooth sure enough, but there was enough dust I knew some wet sanding would be coming, I checked a piece of masking, the clear was just tacky so I mixed and loaded up for a third coat. I was sure I was going to curtain the car and regret it but I did it anyway. Nope, no problems. The cheap upol clear was forgiving, gun never hickuped, just problem free.

    The results? One small run at the very bottom of the very first corner of the very first panel, just an artifact from not turning that corner correctly. I am not upset about it. I expected to be spending days sanding runs and buffing. I think this will take a quick run over with 3000 grit Abralon to knock out all the nibs and a buff & Polish and be way more than good enough. It turned out better than expected.

    0730211310.jpg

    0730211321.jpg


    I did have one small flake of primer decide it wanted to hang out in the clear coat, not sure where it came from. I think it is embedded in the second coat. really not sure what to do about it. If anyone has thoughts I would love to hear them.
    0730211325.jpg


    Sorry for the picture orientation, I am not sure why they are wonky.

  9. #54
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    Ben,

    Glad this turned out so well, great job! However, I think the site deserves a few more pics to help you celebrate and new painters learn from your experience! I am glad you brought up the air brush for repairs in the epoxy as I have brought this tool up in the past which is a great solution for certain repairs.

    "I watched a youtube video last night that suggested doing a wet coat with PPG base to start. So when I started my first coat I laid it on, was really dang happy with the results then BAM fish eyes everywhere... what?"
    That may be true for the PPG product HE was using but certainly not all PPG or other brand products. I never lay on first coat of base heavy. I use PPG Deltron DBC2000 which I would never consider laying on a 1st coat heavy. Typically I hit 1st coat of base with a light to medium/light coat as it helps to prevent imperfections and aids in adhesion for subsequent coats. Fish eye may have been a result of product being laid too heavy, contamination on panel surface or contaminates in hose. I suspect product being laid a bit too heavy. Initial Light tack bc coat followed by a medium coat of almost any product helps resolve this issue most of the time. Using an extended flash time, especially between bc and cc is never a bad thing and can help to prevent several problems that may arise.

    "Started with a medium coat, not quite full gloss, let it flash while I prepped enough material to do a wet coat, played with the gun settings, checked the clock and started on round 2. Saw a bit of dust, figured there was nothing I could do about it and just kept on going"

    Good move on your part to let dust stay where it was. Once I start clear nothing touches the surface. However, I still start with a medium light tack coat followed by a medium coat and end with medium to heavy coat (after extended flash time).

  10. #55

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    I will get some pics up when I move it outside tomorrow. It's raining now and frankly I am smoked.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Niesen View Post
    I will get some pics up when I move it outside tomorrow. It's raining now and frankly I am smoked.
    I completely understand. Go have a cold beer and relax you deserve it. Job well done.

  12. #57
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    the onmi epoxy is more prone to fisheye than the dplf for sure. another reason why i use urethane sealer over it before base.
    nice job by the way, i bet you're pleased to get to this point with it. just be careful if you wetsand not to break through into the base.
    that chip you pointed out? i'd bet a half rack it flew off the plastic masking you used or the plastic sheeting of the booth. regular plastic sheeting is really slick and dry paint will fly off it in small sheets. it's better to use the autobody masking plastic as it has a matte side that grips the paint so it won't fly off in your paint job.
    b marler

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmarler View Post
    the onmi epoxy is more prone to fisheye than the dplf for sure. another reason why i use urethane sealer over it before base.
    nice job by the way, i bet you're pleased to get to this point with it. just be careful if you wetsand not to break through into the base.
    that chip you pointed out? i'd bet a half rack it flew off the plastic masking you used or the plastic sheeting of the booth. regular plastic sheeting is really slick and dry paint will fly off it in small sheets. it's better to use the autobody masking plastic as it has a matte side that grips the paint so it won't fly off in your paint job.
    Marler,

    Glad you brought up the Omni epoxy being prone to fisheye. I have never used that PPG epoxy but can't help but think he shot it too heavy on those few problem areas, your thoughts? Like you I shoot DPLF primer or PPG DAS30XX sealer (I love this sealer, just make sure you mix it well). Glad to see Ben did well and his project came out nice.

    Ben,

    As bmarler points out be mindful when de-nibbing. Starting with 3000g wet should serve you well, just be mindful of peaks and hard edges as they may not have retained the full 3 coats of clear you shot. Use lots of water and go slow until you have a feel for the surface. Consider taping off your hard edges for color sanding and just "tickle" the peaks with your buffing wheel when you start compounding. Always run your buffing pad in a direction that exits the hard edges as opposed to rotating into them to prevent burn through.

  14. #59

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    Here are some more pictures (the hood alignment isn't "that" bad, just had it cracked and didn't want to disturb the clear manhandling it for a photo.

    51179.jpg

    51184.jpg

    51178.jpg
    Thanks for the buffing advice. I will do my best.


    I am completely certain that primer flake came off of the plastic sheeting. Laziness got the better of me. I knew I needed to change it and didn't do it, I hope I don't end up having to repaint the whole panel over it. I know it is somewhere in the second coat, I may just have to leave it.

    Haha, got the pic alignment right this time, but now they are tiny. I can't win with this uploader.

  15. #60
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    You might get that flake out, it’s on a flat surface, that’s in your favor. I keep tweezers in the paint booth for when things like that happen. (Tweezers, long needles, artists brush, you get the idea.)
    If It landed there after the second coat was applied there, (seems possible depending on how the spraying order went) you can get it and still barely have enough film build. Or, you could get it out and re-clear the panel. Just don’t break through to base and you’ll be fine.

    That falcon brings back some fond childhood memories…
    b marler

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