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Thread: Process question

  1. #1

    Default Process question

    Hey everyone, I want to confirm my next steps.

    I have done a few repair panels and 2 complete paint jobs on CJ's, this is the most involved project to date, I am in a little over my head.

    Where I am: I am doing a full paint job, jambs, bay etc are already done, so I am doing only the exterior work now. Shot high build primer on 7/9. Came out real rough, I am inclined to think it was a temp issue, shop/outdoor temp was 82, was using standard hardener and I think it was a little too quick for that temp. Because of the texture it took forever to block. In the past using the gun I am now (devilbiss starting line 1.8) the primer steps came out pretty smooth. I have already invested in a new gun from Len for the color and clear steps, it should be here this week. I will be shooting at 6am from now on to ensure the temps are in the 60s.

    The car is a 65 falcon convertible and is sort of a nightmare to block. I have everything worked out to 220, body work looks good. The primer I am using is upol system 20 https://www.u-pol.com/files/38291/up2253-TDS-EN .

    I am getting ready to spray the next coats, my assumption is I should be spraying a surfacer coat, which I will then block with 400/600. The top coat color is a metallic, Ford Ginger Ale Metallic (JY). Could I instead just spray sealer (how many coats?) to skip the sanding step (it is probably 3 days work for me, I am a bit crippled so I can't block for extended periods). I don't mind spending the time if it is necessary, I have way to many hours in it to screw it up now. However: this is a job I am doing for family, there is no pay and I am already upside down on the money part so I would like to be done with it sooner than later, and would really like to have my shop back Don't think me lazy, I just don't want to waste time if I can help it!

    Once the next coat of primer is on (whatever that is) should I park it out in the sun for before I start blocking? If so how long is good?

    The car is going to be a driver, doesn't have to be perfect. But I want it to be the best product I can put out.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
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    Default

    I've not used that Upol product, did you use guide coat while blocking out to 220? At this point you can continue to block out the high build primer with 320 followed by 600 all the while using guide coat. Thoroughly clean surface with Dawn dishwashing soap (non silicone cleaner) followed by W&G remover, tack off and shoot a single coat of good sealer. Let sealer flash off and immediately follow up with bc/cc.

    Pics would be nice to help evaluate your progress

  3. #3

    Default

    I did use guide coat. There were some areas rough enough that I hit with 150, guide coated then worked to 220. I am certain that is a me flaw though, not a primer issue. There are some spots where I have broken through to metal, the upol is a DTM, the TDS states they want the substrate at 220, even when thinned to sealer consistency. I wasn't sure if I should keep working this or needed to spray again. Thankful the forum is here!

    Pics for your amusement!
    0719211248.jpg0719211248_HDR.jpg0719211250.jpg0719211251.jpg0719211251a.jpg

    Still a little work to do around the door handle area, those spots are tough.

  4. #4
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    Nov 2005
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    Default

    If you're blocking down the high spots and hit metal or filler before the guide coat is gone then you may want to apply another coat or two of primer. Be sure that you don't chase the guide coat by sanding into the low spots, continue sanding the high spots down until the guide coat is gone.

    I did body work for 20 years without guide coat and now that I've been doing it for 50+ years I wouldn't be without it. I started using overly thinned black lacquer in my guide coat spray gun but now it's a lot easier with aerosols and black powder.

  5. #5

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    You are saying shoot two more coats of full on high build? I have enough material to do that. Hopefully everything is straight enough I can just knock that down with 400/600.

  6. #6
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    Dec 2015
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    Ben,

    Great pics and thank you for providing them. Makes a much better understanding what you are dealing with. It really doesn't matter that you have broken through to metal as long as the guide coat showed you are straight and ALL areas are properly feathered out to 600. For instance; if you can sand out everything in your photos USING PROPER SANDING TECHNIQUE and not just trying to remove guide coat, to 600g wet with guide coat and all high and low spots and 220 scratches are removed, you can go directly to a DTM sealer, flash it off and hit with bc/cc. IF I have an extended amount of metal breaking through after final sand I will substitute a high quality epoxy primer (PPG DPLF) X2 coats for my sealer as I feel it gives a stronger foundation for bc/cc when compared to a dedicated sealer. If I have minimal metal exposed and entire surface is sanded to 600 (both filler and exposed metal) I will use a single coat of dedicated DTM sealer (PPG DAS30XX), flash it off and hit with bc/cc. The straighter the original sheet metal is prior to fillers, the more break through will be experienced unless you have absolutely just slammed on the spray filler, which actually isn't a problem.

    I wouldn't let exposed metal sit too long which can make it prone for flash/surface rust before hitting with a sealer or primer followed immediately by bc/cc. The only way to absolutely know if you need a few more coats of high build primer would be for me to physically observe the surface.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Niesen View Post
    You are saying shoot two more coats of full on high build? I have enough material to do that. Hopefully everything is straight enough I can just knock that down with 400/600.
    if the primer you're using is able to be thinned it might help it lay down smoother. i'd do a couple more coats. if it lays down nice it'll block out pretty quickly. those falcons have so many hard lines on them, i'd try to go easy near them till the majority of the sanding is done. one or two licks across a hard line will get the job done. i think i'd do my first pass with 220 or 320. if you try 400 you'll be working it longer. i don't have experience with that primer though, you've been sanding it for a while. you know better what 400 will do on it than we do.
    that should be a forgiving color anyway, a few small defects in the primer shouldn't be a huge deal.
    b marler

  8. #8
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    Nov 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronf View Post
    Ben,

    Great pics and thank you for providing them. Makes a much better understanding what you are dealing with. It really doesn't matter that you have broken through to metal as long as the guide coat showed you are straight and ALL areas are properly feathered out to 600. For instance; if you can sand out everything in your photos USING PROPER SANDING TECHNIQUE and not just trying to remove guide coat, to 600g wet with guide coat and all high and low spots and 220 scratches are removed, you can go directly to a DTM sealer, flash it off and hit with bc/cc. IF I have an extended amount of metal breaking through after final sand I will substitute a high quality epoxy primer (PPG DPLF) X2 coats for my sealer as I feel it gives a stronger foundation for bc/cc when compared to a dedicated sealer. If I have minimal metal exposed and entire surface is sanded to 600 (both filler and exposed metal) I will use a single coat of dedicated DTM sealer (PPG DAS30XX), flash it off and hit with bc/cc. The straighter the original sheet metal is prior to fillers, the more break through will be experienced unless you have absolutely just slammed on the spray filler, which actually isn't a problem.

    I wouldn't let exposed metal sit too long which can make it prone for flash/surface rust before hitting with a sealer or primer followed immediately by bc/cc. The only way to absolutely know if you need a few more coats of high build primer would be for me to physically observe the surface.
    we must have been typing at the same time. absolutely great advise as usual. i just feel like his break through areas in the first pics may need a little more product to block. maybe not though, we're not there to feel the surface. if it is indeed nice enough, the dplf would be a great foundation for the base coat.
    b marler

  9. #9
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    Dec 2015
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmarler View Post
    we must have been typing at the same time. absolutely great advise as usual. i just feel like his break through areas in the first pics may need a little more product to block. maybe not though, we're not there to feel the surface. if it is indeed nice enough, the dplf would be a great foundation for the base coat.
    I think you are correct my friend and your knowledge is dead on as always. I was VERY tempted to tell him to hit it with a few more coats of high build (insurance), but felt the need to allow him to judge his own work as too if it was properly sanded, feathered and TDS was followed. I'm thinking he "may" be okay as is but we both know the only absolutely way to judge the surface prep would be hands on at this stage. Yes, we must have been typing at the same time...."great minds"...

  10. #10

    Default

    You all have far more confidence in my work and skill than I do. I will drop on a little more high build and see how it looks after a guide coat and block. Hopefully it will go on smooth and the blocking will be quick.

  11. #11
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    Nov 2005
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    lower Michigan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Niesen View Post
    You all have far more confidence in my work and skill than I do. I will drop on a little more high build and see how it looks after a guide coat and block. Hopefully it will go on smooth and the blocking will be quick.
    If I were comfortable with the block sanding then I would go straight to epoxy primer as a sealer. No need to sand it before spraying your color coat.(provided you topcoat the epoxy within it's time window).

    That is a judgment call on your part. If you think it needs more block sanding then apply a couple medium coats of 2K urethane high build primer. Add a little more reducer so it lays down better than the last time. Coming out dry like you suggested had nothing to do with the ambient temperature. The problem was in the application. Gun too far from the surface, air pressure too high, moving too fast, not enough reducer etc etc. Could be any one of those or any combination of those.

  12. #12

    Default

    Thanks Phil, it has been a while since I sprayed. I will focus on my distance, overlap and technique. If it is not going well and laying flat on the first panel I will stop and post pics for help in evaluating.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronf View Post
    I've not used that Upol product, did you use guide coat while blocking out to 220? At this point you can continue to block out the high build primer with 320 followed by 600 all the while using guide coat. Thoroughly clean surface with Dawn dishwashing soap (non silicone cleaner) followed by W&G remover, tack off and shoot a single coat of good sealer. Let sealer flash off and immediately follow up with bc/cc.

    Pics would be nice to help evaluate your progress
    Do I use dawn and wash even though it has bare metal showing, or is this an invitation for flash rust?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil V View Post
    If I were comfortable with the block sanding then I would go straight to epoxy primer as a sealer. No need to sand it before spraying your color coat.(provided you topcoat the epoxy within it's time window).

    That is a judgment call on your part. If you think it needs more block sanding then apply a couple medium coats of 2K urethane high build primer. Add a little more reducer so it lays down better than the last time. Coming out dry like you suggested had nothing to do with the ambient temperature. The problem was in the application. Gun too far from the surface, air pressure too high, moving too fast, not enough reducer etc etc. Could be any one of those or any combination of those.

    To clarify, if I am shooting this what is my temp range? The TDS says standard hardener is good from 60-90 if it is mid 80s in my shop and around 90 outside when I start pulling air through that puts it at the top of the range? Last time it was thickening in the cup by the time I was ready to reload the gun. For instance it is 78 in the shop right now, but the outdoor temp is 92 and climbing, am I not better off to prep the shop and just wait for the morning when it will be 73 in the shop and 65 outside?

    My shop is 25 x 45 with high ceilings, the air movement set up i have is a 3' x 7' man door at one end, I installed a screen door and loaded it with filters, it is the make up air source. The other end of my shop has an overhead extraction fan around 3000 cfm and I run 4 20" box fans with filtration at the base of the door with the rest of the door sealed off. It moves air reasonably quickly and the shop will come up to outdoor temps in under 30 minutes. When all the extraction is running the plastic is ballooning in, so I know I have negative pressure.

    0709212040.jpg

    I have since added 6 more tube lights on the left side of that pic to make spraying a little easier.

  14. #14
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    Dec 2015
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Niesen View Post
    Do I use dawn and wash even though it has bare metal showing, or is this an invitation for flash rust?




    To clarify, if I am shooting this what is my temp range? The TDS says standard hardener is good from 60-90 if it is mid 80s in my shop and around 90 outside when I start pulling air through that puts it at the top of the range? Last time it was thickening in the cup by the time I was ready to reload the gun. For instance it is 78 in the shop right now, but the outdoor temp is 92 and climbing, am I not better off to prep the shop and just wait for the morning when it will be 73 in the shop and 65 outside?

    My shop is 25 x 45 with high ceilings, the air movement set up i have is a 3' x 7' man door at one end, I installed a screen door and loaded it with filters, it is the make up air source. The other end of my shop has an overhead extraction fan around 3000 cfm and I run 4 20" box fans with filtration at the base of the door with the rest of the door sealed off. It moves air reasonably quickly and the shop will come up to outdoor temps in under 30 minutes. When all the extraction is running the plastic is ballooning in, so I know I have negative pressure.

    0709212040.jpg

    I have since added 6 more tube lights on the left side of that pic to make spraying a little easier.
    It is acclimated temperature of the parts to be shot. Focus on shop temps and surface temps of parts to be shot ONLY. You are good to go with your hardner, I think you are over complicating this. After washing with dawn the parts should be dried quickly, pulled into booth, W&G remover cleaned, allow air dry time and tack off for spraying.

  15. #15
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    On your Upol SYSTEM 20 4:1 HIGH BUILD PRIMER you stated "Shot high build primer on 7/9" which I assume was mixed 4:1 (no reduction) and applied with a 1.8 tip correct? After looking over the TDS for your product I would be very tempted to reduce it to 4:1:1-1/2 and shoot with a 1.4 tip. After set up start your blocking with either 320 or 400 (using guide coat) and finish with 600g wet. Once complete you can go straight to finish top coats of sealer and bc/cc or You can use an epoxy primer (reduced) as a substitution for sealer IF it is a quality product. I have not used this Upol product but would be hard pressed to use it as a primer/sealer as outlined in the TDS (4:1:2).

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