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Thread: Sherwin ATX peeling on Epoxy - help a paint n00b

  1. #1
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    Default Sherwin ATX peeling on Epoxy - help a paint n00b

    Hello everyone. I needed to repaint the hood on my outboard and some other parts so I decided to ditch the rattle cans and go up a level. I should mention that I don't have very much experience in painting - if at all. I decided repainting the hood would be a good project to start off with. I had some PPG spectracron epoxy primer left over from my previous outdrive paint job, and so I went ahead and bought some sherwin ATX basecoat and ACME finish 1 fc740 clear. in my previous outdrive paint job I used the same spectracron epoxy fleetprime, and then went over with dupont imron. The result was pretty bulletproof, albeit a little orange peely. I read up that imron would orange peel no matter what. It wasn't terrible, and looked alright. Much better than what it was. I may have done the same thing right now, except that last time I was lucky to have access to a spray booth with a fresh air system. Right now I would not dare to crack that can of imron open. Dangerous stuff.

    Anyways, this time I sprayed the epoxy primer on. It did orange peel on me a little, but I knocked it down with 600 easy. I used a 1.8 at 24 psi. 24 hours after the primer I went ahead and threw on the sherwin ATX, 24 PSI with a 1.4. It went on VERY good. It did not hide the primer after the first coat, so I put on a second coat after allowing the first to hand slick. No orange peel and really smooth. The next day I went ahead and applied the clear, 24PSI, 1.3 nozzle. The darn thing would orange peel easy. I tried just gently dusting it. It would land and start clumping up. I tried going thicker. still orange peeling. Anyways, a few minutes later until hand slick I applied the second layer of clear. The orange peel did not go away. Only later on did I try applying a very heavy coat of clear. Then the orange peel disappeared. I waited a few days for the paint to cure. I put all the parts on the motor and headed out in a week. First run things were OK. After running 55mph in my boat the paint peeled right off the lower unit. I can literally peel the paint off the primer like vinyl graphics. The primer stuck on to the lower unit like glue, but the paint peels off the primer way too easy. I should've maybe asked here before starting out, but too late now. Its not a lot of paint so no big deal, but now I need to fix this, how do I prevent the BC from peeling off the primer?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by vroomZOOM View Post
    Hello everyone. I needed to repaint the hood on my outboard and some other parts so I decided to ditch the rattle cans and go up a level. I should mention that I don't have very much experience in painting - if at all. I decided repainting the hood would be a good project to start off with. I had some PPG spectracron epoxy primer left over from my previous outdrive paint job, and so I went ahead and bought some sherwin ATX basecoat and ACME finish 1 fc740 clear. in my previous outdrive paint job I used the same spectracron epoxy fleetprime, and then went over with dupont imron. The result was pretty bulletproof, albeit a little orange peely. I read up that imron would orange peel no matter what. It wasn't terrible, and looked alright. Much better than what it was. I may have done the same thing right now, except that last time I was lucky to have access to a spray booth with a fresh air system. Right now I would not dare to crack that can of imron open. Dangerous stuff.

    Anyways, this time I sprayed the epoxy primer on. It did orange peel on me a little, but I knocked it down with 600 easy. I used a 1.8 at 24 psi. 24 hours after the primer I went ahead and threw on the sherwin ATX, 24 PSI with a 1.4. It went on VERY good. It did not hide the primer after the first coat, so I put on a second coat after allowing the first to hand slick. No orange peel and really smooth. The next day I went ahead and applied the clear, 24PSI, 1.3 nozzle. The darn thing would orange peel easy. I tried just gently dusting it. It would land and start clumping up. I tried going thicker. still orange peeling. Anyways, a few minutes later until hand slick I applied the second layer of clear. The orange peel did not go away. Only later on did I try applying a very heavy coat of clear. Then the orange peel disappeared. I waited a few days for the paint to cure. I put all the parts on the motor and headed out in a week. First run things were OK. After running 55mph in my boat the paint peeled right off the lower unit. I can literally peel the paint off the primer like vinyl graphics. The primer stuck on to the lower unit like glue, but the paint peels off the primer way too easy. I should've maybe asked here before starting out, but too late now. Its not a lot of paint so no big deal, but now I need to fix this, how do I prevent the BC from peeling off the primer?
    If you're spraying base on top of epoxy primer you must spray it within the "re-coat window" IOW if you allow the primer to dry too long the paint won't stick. Different epoxy primers have different re-coat windows and some primers don't allow spraying without sanding. I'm not familiar with the products your using so be sure to look at the manufacturer's recommendations. Some re-coat windows are 6 hours and some are 6 days so know the limitations of the products you're using.

  3. #3
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    The recoat window is 7 days, after which it must be abraded - or so it says in the data sheet. The primer stuck very well to the gear case and the clear stuck well to the basecoat. The basecoat/primer did not adhere. I am thinking that maybe the urethane basecoat does not stick well to epoxy in general. Could I use urethane primer over the epoxy, and then put the basecoat over that, or should I sand everything down and start all over?

    Thanks

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by vroomZOOM View Post
    The recoat window is 7 days, after which it must be abraded - or so it says in the data sheet. The primer stuck very well to the gear case and the clear stuck well to the basecoat. The basecoat/primer did not adhere. I am thinking that maybe the urethane basecoat does not stick well to epoxy in general. Could I use urethane primer over the epoxy, and then put the basecoat over that, or should I sand everything down and start all over?

    Thanks
    When we apply color over epoxy primer we spray the primer then wait until it dries which is about two hours at 70+ degrees F. We never have problems with de-lamination.

  5. #5
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    I called up sherwin williams and they simply said my primer was incompatible with that basecoat. They did not have an epoxy primer that was compatible with the basecoat. would it be ok to put urethane primer OVER the epoxy primer, and then put the basecoat over that?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by vroomZOOM View Post
    I called up sherwin williams and they simply said my primer was incompatible with that basecoat. They did not have an epoxy primer that was compatible with the basecoat. would it be ok to put urethane primer OVER the epoxy primer, and then put the basecoat over that?
    Yes you can do that. Did SW tell you to buy their primer or their paint to make in compatible?

  7. #7
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    you didn't mention which spectracron series you used. there are a few different ones, all of them intended for industrial use. if i were using it, i'd use the recommended ppg color coat so you are assured the system will work together. now you'll need to get all the top coats off and sand the epoxy well no matter what coating you'll use.
    the imron style paint are really good for lower units, i'd be tempted to go that route. i've shot small stuff like that outdoors and had good results. just use good breathing protection and keep bystanders away.
    b marler

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmarler View Post
    you didn't mention which spectracron series you used. there are a few different ones, all of them intended for industrial use. if i were using it, i'd use the recommended ppg color coat so you are assured the system will work together. now you'll need to get all the top coats off and sand the epoxy well no matter what coating you'll use.
    the imron style paint are really good for lower units, i'd be tempted to go that route. i've shot small stuff like that outdoors and had good results. just use good breathing protection and keep bystanders away.
    Spectracron is 6341352. I do have 3 gallons of the single stage imron, but I am not sure what breathing protection I need, so I decided not to risk using it. I heard that a regular organic vapour respirator does not filter out the iso's. The one time I used it was when I was lucky enough to have access to a spray booth with a fresh air supply system. I will try putting the urethane primer on top of the epoxy, maybe that will work out. Do you guys have a method for testing how well the paint adheres to the primer? Also, the paint removed itself almost completely, so I will just sand down the primer.IMG_5749.jpg

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by vroomZOOM View Post
    Spectracron is 6341352. I do have 3 gallons of the single stage imron, but I am not sure what breathing protection I need, so I decided not to risk using it. I heard that a regular organic vapour respirator does not filter out the iso's. The one time I used it was when I was lucky enough to have access to a spray booth with a fresh air supply system. I will try putting the urethane primer on top of the epoxy, maybe that will work out. Do you guys have a method for testing how well the paint adheres to the primer? Also, the paint removed itself almost completely, so I will just sand down the primer.
    obviously, fresh air systems are best when painting any catalyzed paint. all of the hardened paints contain iso's, not just imron. imron, however, is one of the more potent formulations. organic cartridges do indeed provide protection, but you also need to think about protecting your eyes and other exposed skin. mucous membranes are the most likely place to absorb iso's, that's why we do lung protection. a full face mask will protect your eyes and a good painting suit will protect your other exposed skin. i've shot a few sailboat hulls in imron and awlgrip paint inside plastic enclosures using this exact protection with no adverse effects. you just need to be sensible about what you're doing. again, fresh air systems are best, but i wouldn't hesitate to do your small project in imron using a food quality full face respirator, especially if i was outside, or in a well ventilated space.
    if you're worried about adhesion, do a cross-hatch test. get a small flat panel of metal, shoot your epoxy on it like you did the lower unit. shoot the urethane primer on that, then the topcoats. i'd partially mask off the panel in stages, adding coatings on different areas. you'll end up with a striped panel with one stripe of epoxy, one stripe of epoxy/urethane primer, one stripe of epoxy/urethane primer/basecoat, one stripe with epoxy/ urethane primer/base/clear. let everything cure as needed according to the tds. when fully cured, take a razor blade and cut a cross-hatch pattern (1/4 to 3/8 squares) in each section, apply masking tape to it and pull it off. you'll see how well each coating adheres to it's substrate.
    i searched ppg's website and couldn't find the product you mention. all i found were the 5xx series epoxy primers.
    i wonder if you could powerwash the lower unit and remove the majority of that paint? sanding all those nooks and crannies is a real chore.
    b marler

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by vroomZOOM View Post
    I called up sherwin williams and they simply said my primer was incompatible with that basecoat.
    I looked up that primer, the "501" series states it's a one component primer.
    Is that the one you're using?
    If it's 0ne component it can't be an epoxy.
    It's made for painting bridges.

    http://www.ppgtruefinish.com/getdoc/...xy-Primer.aspx

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCCLARK View Post
    I looked up that primer, the "501" series states it's a one component primer.
    Is that the one you're using?
    If it's 0ne component it can't be an epoxy.
    It's made for painting bridges.

    http://www.ppgtruefinish.com/getdoc/...xy-Primer.aspx
    there are what they call one component modified epoxy paints. they require a certain amount of moisture in the air for full cure. personally, i wouldn't use them, especially on a severe duty situation like a lower unit.
    b marler

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCCLARK View Post
    I looked up that primer, the "501" series states it's a one component primer.
    Is that the one you're using?
    If it's 0ne component it can't be an epoxy.
    It's made for painting bridges.

    http://www.ppgtruefinish.com/getdoc/...xy-Primer.aspx
    that can't be the one. the one I have is quite obviously a two part primer, and its 2c, not 1k.

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