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Thread: Confusion activated waterbourne basecoat

  1. #1
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    Jul 2021
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    Default Confusion activated waterbourne basecoat

    Hi,

    With solvent basecoat, it was widely known that adding 5-10% of the clearcoat activator in the basecoat improved robustness against chipping. This would be used with an epoxy primer/sealer as the ideal foundation and a high solids activated clearcoat on top.

    I am struggling to understand the possibility of activating metallic waterbourne basecoats under activated clear. For example, activation is mentioned here

    https://buyat.ppg.com/RefinishProduc...2-D1318F063792

    without giving details of activation.

    The thing is, this reference to activator might only be in the context of conversion to single coat engine bay or single coat interior products that do not need clear. In these cases, more than just activator is added to the basecoat, and I am not not sure if these are suitable for use on the exterior even if cleared over. Can they be blended to the rest of the car, metallic etc?

    Please explain : Is it possible to add activator to WATERBOURNE METALLIC basecoat, topped off with clear coat that also uses the same type of activator? Will this give increased robustness to chipping?

    Would I be better off with solvent basecoat + activator?
    Is it possible to blend solvent basecoat repair into a waterbourne car?

    Is there anything I can do to increase chip resistance and robustness of waterbourne please?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
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    Default

    Hi Anthony, welcome aboard.
    I haven't used waterbourne products so I can't give you much information about them except that I think it would be quite strange to mix activator which is used in the clear coating mixed in the base. If the base is a solvent then it may be OK but since I haven't done it maybe someone else can give you better advice.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Len View Post
    Hi Anthony, welcome aboard.
    I haven't used waterbourne products so I can't give you much information about them except that I think it would be quite strange to mix activator which is used in the clear coating mixed in the base. If the base is a solvent then it may be OK but since I haven't done it maybe someone else can give you better advice.
    It's a smart idea with solvent base,and not abnormal at all.
    For example see https://buyat.ppg.com/RefinishProduc...7-FCAE62B199D1

    One page 1 it states near the bottom...

    Additives: Optional
    The hardener that will be used in the clearcoat selected for the repair may also
    be added to catalyze the basecoat as follows:
    10% to unreduced RTS or
    5% to reduced RTS


    also see

    http://autobodystore.com/forum/showt...coat-activator


    http://www.spiuserforum.com/index.ph...ase-coat.5723/


    But I still need info on the waterbourne equivalent...anyone?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
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    Default Hey Anthony

    Tony, impossible to stop stone chipping, stones are like bullets to a finish. I don’t believe any paint company warranties stone chips on their shop lifetime guarantees, I could be wrong.

    Regarding your other questions, I noticed the ppg link you provided and that’s good, my honest answer is to call their tech line or try to have the rep meet you or at least call you. Material cost can kill you, it’s worth a call for sure.

    Good questions, sorry I couldn’t help.

    Ps, adding hardner (or reactive reducer )to the undercoats and base make the film build more flexible. Think back to catalized Acrylic Enamel, the hardner was in-itself, a flex agent. The weakness was in the uncatalized undercoats. But still wasn’t chip proof.
    "Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." Alfred E. Newman

  5. #5
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    Jul 2021
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by recoatlift View Post
    Tony, impossible to stop stone chipping, stones are like bullets to a finish. I don’t believe any paint company warranties stone chips on their shop lifetime guarantees, I could be wrong.

    Regarding your other questions, I noticed the ppg link you provided and that’s good, my honest answer is to call their tech line or try to have the rep meet you or at least call you. Material cost can kill you, it’s worth a call for sure.

    Good questions, sorry I couldn’t help.

    Ps, adding hardner (or reactive reducer )to the undercoats and base make the film build more flexible. Think back to catalized Acrylic Enamel, the hardner was in-itself, a flex agent. The weakness was in the uncatalized undercoats. But still wasn’t chip proof.
    Here comes one of those moments where the idiot tries to beat you with experience :-)

    Locally there used to be a company MG-Rover, who built their version of the 90's 5 door civic as the Rover 45 until 2006. Paint was by Dupont, with activated base and clear. Drove last car over 8 years and not a single chip. PPG waterborne on a VW, same roads, first chips I have ever had in my life. Ever.

    Can't count on local reps for tech info - not conscientious. Still hoping to find someone on here who has activated waterbourne, or else knows that it can't be done in the way I describe! Only 19 people have viewed so far, so here's hoping...

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by VWAnthony View Post
    Here comes one of those moments where the idiot tries to beat you with experience :-)

    Locally there used to be a company MG-Rover, who built their version of the 90's 5 door civic as the Rover 45 until 2006. Paint was by Dupont, with activated base and clear. Drove last car over 8 years and not a single chip. PPG waterborne on a VW, same roads, first chips I have ever had in my life. Ever.

    Can't count on local reps for tech info - not conscientious. Still hoping to find someone on here who has activated waterbourne, or else knows that it can't be done in the way I describe! Only 19 people have viewed so far, so here's hoping...
    There's only one guy on here right now that may be able to help and its RonF. I'm not sure if he has ever used activated waterborne but you might want to send him a private message to get what he knows.

  7. #7
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    Jul 2021
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    Quote Originally Posted by Len View Post
    There's only one guy on here right now that may be able to help and its RonF. I'm not sure if he has ever used activated waterborne but you might want to send him a private message to get what he knows.
    Thanks. Wouldn't it be funny if it turned out that it was possible to do all these years, just nobody thought of it? The next big thing will be to paint you car in single coat activated engine bay product, and then add a clear on top anyway. For people who don't want to paint their car in bedliner...

  8. #8
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    Default

    Also, anyone know if it is possible to blend a solvent basecoat into a metallic waterbourne basecoat vehicle, or would there be issues?

  9. #9
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    Nov 2006
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    My understanding of the reason to add an activator to the base coat was for insurance. If you need to resand and then expose the base coat paint the activator would prevent the solvent from subsequent base coat applications from dissolving the old base coat which would result in wrinkling. If you didnít use an activator you can prevent wrinkling by dusting the first coat of base very thin upon the sanded area. Then when it has flashed, go to painting as usual. I donít think waterborne has that kind of problem, but I donít use it. Many years ago I was sold on waterborne base coat but soon found out my supplier didnít mix and sell it, only bulk supplies to shops that did their own color mixing.

    Bob K

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob K View Post
    My understanding of the reason to add an activator to the base coat was for insurance. If you need to resand and then expose the base coat paint the activator would prevent the solvent from subsequent base coat applications from dissolving the old base coat which would result in wrinkling. If you didnít use an activator you can prevent wrinkling by dusting the first coat of base very thin upon the sanded area. Then when it has flashed, go to painting as usual. I donít think waterborne has that kind of problem, but I donít use it. Many years ago I was sold on waterborne base coat but soon found out my supplier didnít mix and sell it, only bulk supplies to shops that did their own color mixing.

    Bob K
    That's true, but the chip resistance reasons are also true.
    Is it fair to say you have had no difficulties doing solvent basecoat repairs on a car that is otherwise waterbourne basecoat?

  11. #11
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    where's baubau? he uses waterbourne all the time.
    b marler

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by VWAnthony View Post
    Is it fair to say you have had no difficulties doing solvent basecoat repairs on a car that is otherwise waterbourne basecoat?
    I have no way of knowing if a base coat I encounter was waterborne or solvent based when I get a car. I donít know what the factories use. If I do a dent repair I cover the filler with 2k primer and that seals the disturbed edge of the paint. When I fix a sand through itís exposing my own paint so Iím not sure if waterborne paint reacts to solvent based paint. I have plenty of experience fixing my mistakes with solvent base though so Iím gun shy with exposed paint.

    Bob K

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmarler View Post
    where's baubau? he uses waterbourne all the time.
    baubau has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob K View Post
    My understanding of the reason to add an activator to the base coat was for insurance. If you need to resand and then expose the base coat paint the activator would prevent the solvent from subsequent base coat applications from dissolving the old base coat which would result in wrinkling. If you didnít use an activator you can prevent wrinkling by dusting the first coat of base very thin upon the sanded area. Then when it has flashed, go to painting as usual. I donít think waterborne has that kind of problem, but I donít use it. Many years ago I was sold on waterborne base coat but soon found out my supplier didnít mix and sell it, only bulk supplies to shops that did their own color mixing.

    Bob K
    Bob K is dead on. Activating the base (solvent borne) makes repair so much easier and eliminates the wrinkle and sanding problems associated with break throughs needing repaired. However, it will not help you be more chip/stone resistant. If fact years ago I found it may actually harm you when looking for the best chip resistant surface possible as it has no "give" when hit by an object. I activate all my topside sheet metal bc shots for my repair insurance (just as bob stated), followed by a soft CC (PPG DCU2021) that is easy to sand and brings out the lustre. On fender wells, underside of fenders, back side of doghouse, etc., I don't use an activator on the bc (softer bc for "give") however I follow this with a hard cc, (PPG DC3000 x 4-5 coats) which makes for an extremely hard CC surface. This combination has been working well for years and as I mostly shoot only show quality classic cars in which a chip resistance surface is imperative for judging.

    I have never shot water borne paint and have no desire too learn a new product. Like bob k, if I am dealing with a new repair on an old surface I simply sand and epoxy primer over it and start anew to give it a good foundation followed by solvent borne products. I'm with bmarler "where is baubau" who has the experience with water based products.

  15. #15
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    Mar 2007
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    Ola..

    So, I don't activate my ppg envirobase o debeer waterborne basecoat when doing outside panel...

    However, when I do some underwood painting, I add activator to water-based basecoat to make it more durable and tougher dull color and it becomes more resistant...no clearcoat over it sometimes...but I always dust some Clear to protect it..

    So yes, you can activate basecoat, it will become more hardened

    Yes, you can blend solvent into water-based basecoat, easy, better than blending into solvent as the paint will not react..


    Yes, you can put water-based basecoat over freshly applied solvent basecoat, like wait 1 hour, let solvents escape, scuff 1000 grit and shoot it...I do it all the time to save paint, better coverage etc..

    And NO, don't put fresh solvent basecost over fresh water-based basecoat.....it can lead to trouble..wa

    Spraying and blending water-based basecoat is actually easier than solvent after some practice as it eliminates many variables....

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