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Thread: A little advice from the auto body & paint pros

  1. #1
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    Default A little advice from the auto body & paint pros

    Hi all, new here!

    Been putting this off long enough, time to get it done!

    First off, I havenít done any auto painting in years. How long has it been? Well, letís just say it was way back when the Binks Model 7 was the go to gun for most... Lol. I still have the 7 gun along with my Model 18 & 19 from back in the day. I do have an inexpensive HVLP gun for small projects, but would like something better and more up to date (feel free to suggest your favorite go-to gun).

    My project now is to refinish the roof of my F350 super crew. Unfortunately, the clear is peeling and the top rusting.

    I have all the tools/equipment for this job, just need advice on what new products are available for this project since Iíve been out of the loop for so long.

    My question is: what would be a decent combo gun today in order to spray the waterborne auto paints we have now along with the low VOC clearcoats?

    Also, a primer with good filling and sanding qualities. Basically, the products you guys would choose for my project at hand.

    Any and all advice is welcome in this refinishing process as I am unfamiliar with the newer primers/sealers/basecoats & clears of today.

    Thanks

    F350 Roof.jpg

  2. #2
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    Default WELCOME!

    Quote Originally Posted by S-C View Post
    Hi all, new here!

    Been putting this off long enough, time to get it done!

    First off, I haven’t done any auto painting in years. How long has it been? Well, let’s just say it was way back when the Binks Model 7 was the go to gun for most... Lol. I still have the 7 gun along with my Model 18 & 19 from back in the day. I do have an inexpensive HVLP gun for small projects, but would like something better and more up to date (feel free to suggest your favorite go-to gun).

    My project now is to refinish the roof of my F350 super crew. Unfortunately, the clear is peeling and the top rusting.

    I have all the tools/equipment for this job, just need advice on what new products are available for this project since I’ve been out of the loop for so long.

    My question is: what would be a decent combo gun today in order to spray the waterborne auto paints we have now along with the low VOC clearcoats?

    Also, a primer with good filling and sanding qualities. Basically, the products you guys would choose for my project at hand.

    Any and all advice is welcome in this refinishing process as I am unfamiliar with the newer primers/sealers/basecoats & clears of today.

    Thanks

    F350 Roof.jpg
    Welcome to the ABS forum!

    Have to ask first off, what are your intentions as far as autobody work and painting? Makes a big difference if only this roof or you intend to redo the entire vehicle. Do you have a compressor to power a spray gun? For me, I would strip that roof in one of two ways. I have a MUD HOG air sander I've used for such things and I have an electric sander/buffer (Hitachi) equivalent to the popular MAKITA MKT9237CX2 or CX3.
    http://autobodystore.net/Merchant2/m...tegory_Code=T2

    (A worthwhile tool for buffing, compounding any vehicle at any time). I use the sander function of it to take down a roof like you have in a couple hours on only a medium speed or less allowing the machine to do the work. You just need to avoid HEAT so no high speed (cheepo) sanders that basically turn too fast and ruin the paper by clogging causing you to buy more paper and run the risk of getting the panel too hot and warping the metal.

    A good source for good paint & primers is above the screen in the black rectangular box called THE COATING STORE.
    https://shareasale.com/r.cfm?b=62305...ink=&afftrack=

    What happened to your roof is typical and is called 'Clear Coat delamination'. Others will also chime in to help you out. Let us know what I asked and any other information you wish to share for us to get you more information. Thanks.

    Henry
    Last edited by Henry; 09-22-2020 at 11:31 PM.

  3. #3
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    My advice -- get the roof media blasted (by a professional) down to clean bare metal. Then epoxy primer, followed by basecoat then clearcoat.

    That Model 18 is a great gun. I still have one and use it occasionally. My Model 7 has been gone from my paint gun rack for many years. You could actually do the whole job of priming and painting with that old Model 18. In fact if the truck roof is all you're doing then I personally would use the Model 18. You will have to work a little harder to get a glass smooth clear coat with that gun but it will get the job done.

    If you are looking to upgrade to a current generation of spray gun then there are lot of choices in the $150 range on up to a $1,000 for a waaay overpriced Sata. Good gun but not $1,000 good.

  4. #4
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    Hi Henry, thanks for the warm welcome!

    I will try an answer all your questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry View Post
    Have to ask first off, what are your intentions as far as autobody work and painting? Makes a big difference if only this roof or you intend to redo the entire vehicle.
    My plan is to refinish the roof, but as I look closer, I may want to do the hood as well. The hood has some rock chips Iíd like to take care of so might as well repaint it too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry View Post
    Do you have a compressor to power a spray gun?
    Actually, I have all the tools for this job, hand and pneumatic sanders, straight-line, block, random orbital, disk, dual action etc, a Milwaukee power buffer/polisher and my favorite tool in the garage to run it all, a Saylor Beall VT-735-80 compressor.

    Itís not like I have never done this type of work before, just not familiar with todayís latest and greatest paint systems.

    Iím basically looking for suggestions on decent spray guns of today that perform well with good results, ones you guys use and would recommend. You know, your favorite go-to gun.

    Also, recommendations on your favorite body fillers, primers, sealers, basecoats & clears.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil V View Post
    My advice -- get the roof media blasted (by a professional) down to clean bare metal. Then epoxy primer, followed by basecoat then clearcoat.
    Not sure I needed the epoxy primer, but if there is metal showing I guess that would be best especially taking it all the way down.

    Do the new epoxies have good filling & sanding qualities (Iíve never used them), or should I use a urethane primer surfacer over the top of the epoxy to fill the imperfections, light scratches etc.? (Hey, Iím old; we mostly used lacquer primers back in the dayÖ Lol).

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil V View Post
    That Model 18 is a great gun. I still have one and use it occasionally. My Model 7 has been gone from my paint gun rack for many years. You could actually do the whole job of priming and painting with that old Model 18. In fact if the truck roof is all you're doing then I personally would use the Model 18. You will have to work a little harder to get a glass smooth clear coat with that gun but it will get the job done.
    Yes agreed, the 18 was a great all around gun. I personally liked using the Model 7, I originally ordered it with a large fluid tip and air nozzle and that thing would lay down a swath of paint like no other. Those two guns were very good back in the day.

    Iím looking for something new that works well with todayís paints, so if you have a favorite go-to gun thatís not crazy expensive please share with me.

    Thanks again Phil

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by S-C View Post
    Not sure I needed the epoxy primer, but if there is metal showing I guess that would be best especially taking it all the way down.

    Do the new epoxies have good filling & sanding qualities (Iíve never used them), or should I use a urethane primer surfacer over the top of the epoxy to fill the imperfections, light scratches etc.? (Hey, Iím old; we mostly used lacquer primers back in the dayÖ Lol).



    Yes agreed, the 18 was a great all around gun. I personally liked using the Model 7, I originally ordered it with a large fluid tip and air nozzle and that thing would lay down a swath of paint like no other. Those two guns were very good back in the day.

    Iím looking for something new that works well with todayís paints, so if you have a favorite go-to gun thatís not crazy expensive please share with me.

    Thanks again Phil
    If you brought the truck into our shop we would remove the existing paint using a sander then probably treat the rusted areas using Picklex 20 then prime the top using Optex primer then sand and paint.

    As far as spray guns go if you want a great gun for spraying your top coat paint I'd recommend the Sagola 4600 with a 1.3 or 1.3XL fluid tip and the clear coat air cap. But if you don't want to spend that much money you can go with something like the DeVilbiss Finishline gun.

    Be sure to protect yourself while spraying anything but especially hardened primers and paints. Because of Covid 19 most decent half-masks are not available but the Hobbyair systems are available with the direct-feed hood.

  7. #7
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    Hi Phil,
    I'm new here too, but like you not new to this sort of stuff. Please don't discount your old Binks guns. I've still got one (I kept a 2001) and it will perform just fine with today's paint...especially something like catalyzed urethane. As with any gun it is a matter of air flow/pressure and fluid flow. I also kept a copy of the Binks 7 which was made in Korea. Good luck.

  8. #8
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    I think your answer lies somewhere between all these suggestions. Like Phil, the aspect of media blasting really gets the rusted metal pitting down to good clean metal and makes this particular project easier with all the metal stamped reliefs on that roof as well as the 2 rain channels. However, since you have a good compressor I would use a spot blaster for the rusted areas and machine sand the rest. The spot blaster would also aid you in taking down all those roof panel reliefs as needed. Fact is that roof is going to take a lot of patience when removing the existing finish as well as any fillers going over it for blocking out. Like henry I have used my Mud Hog on work like this (mine is the small version hog) with great success. Like Len I would use the Evercoat Optex hb primer/filler, which is a dtm product, allowing you to omit the epoxy primer step, but if I'm not mistaken it cannot be sprayed over the Picklex 20 as Picklex is an acid based product.
    For my go to gun I use an Sata 4000b rp. Just as Phil stated "the Satas are over priced" and I agree with him, but the Sata guns and the way they atomize just fit my spraying style which gives me comfort when I get behind the gun. I use a Devilbiss FLG for epoxy and hb primers. This gun comes with 3 tips and I wouldn't hesitate to shoot bc/cc or single stage with it if it was my only gun. You can also purchase a 2.2 tip for FLG as well, which I use for shooting Slick sand, feather fill and Optex with.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronf View Post
    I think your answer lies somewhere between all these suggestions. Like Phil, the aspect of media blasting really gets the rusted metal pitting down to good clean metal and makes this particular project easier with all the metal stamped reliefs on that roof as well as the 2 rain channels. However, since you have a good compressor I would use a spot blaster for the rusted areas and machine sand the rest. The spot blaster would also aid you in taking down all those roof panel reliefs as needed. Fact is that roof is going to take a lot of patience when removing the existing finish as well as any fillers going over it for blocking out. Like henry I have used my Mud Hog on work like this (mine is the small version hog) with great success. Like Len I would use the Evercoat Optex hb primer/filler, which is a dtm product, allowing you to omit the epoxy primer step, but if I'm not mistaken it cannot be sprayed over the Picklex 20 as Picklex is an acid based product.
    For my go to gun I use an Sata 4000b rp. Just as Phil stated "the Satas are over priced" and I agree with him, but the Sata guns and the way they atomize just fit my spraying style which gives me comfort when I get behind the gun. I use a Devilbiss FLG for epoxy and hb primers. This gun comes with 3 tips and I wouldn't hesitate to shoot bc/cc or single stage with it if it was my only gun. You can also purchase a 2.2 tip for FLG as well, which I use for shooting Slick sand, feather fill and Optex with.
    Ronf, Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts on my project.

    This is the type of feedback Iím looking for.

    I was thinking about sanding the entire top with the various sanders I have and then using a wire wheel on the rust spots in order to get into the crevices left behind, then cleaning the entire area with a wipe down of acetone prior to prime.

    Question: Anything wrong with using a wire wheel?

    Question: Acetone ok for the wipe down, or something else?

    Thanks for the tip on the primer/filler, (works as a guide coat too) didnít know such a thing existed.

    I appreciate your feedback on spray guns; this is where Iím having trouble deciding.

    I really, really like that Sagola 4600 Len referred to, but it is pricey for the amount of painting Iíll ever do. Would love that for my last gun! A good used one would be just fine too!

    The DeVilbiss Finishline gun Len suggested looks ok too.

    Ron, you mentioned DeVilbiss FLG, are these two guns the same? If not, can you elaborate more on them?
    Thanks

  10. #10
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    a wire wheel can work ok for working the loose rust from a frame or trailer but i don't like it for exterior sheet metal. it won't really dig the rust out like blasting will. it can sort of burnish the rust and just make the surface hard without removing the rust entirely. it can also make a lot of heat if you're not careful.
    those little spot blasters can be found very inexpensively, and you'll find other uses for it once you have one.
    b marler

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmarler View Post
    a wire wheel can work ok for working the loose rust from a frame or trailer but i don't like it for exterior sheet metal. it won't really dig the rust out like blasting will. it can sort of burnish the rust and just make the surface hard without removing the rust entirely. it can also make a lot of heat if you're not careful.
    those little spot blasters can be found very inexpensively, and you'll find other uses for it once you have one.
    Thanks for the tip, didn't think about the burnishing part, don't want that.

    The rust in the pics looks to be light surface when looked at in person. I'm truly hoping that with power sanding I'll get to the bottom of it without digging in to deep.

    I haven't started on this project yet, just getting my game plan in order and a materials list going.

    My biggest dilemma is choice of spray gun. I just can't get that Sagola 4600 out of my head lol...

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by S-C View Post
    Thanks for the tip, didn't think about the burnishing part, don't want that.

    The rust in the pics looks to be light surface when looked at in person. I'm truly hoping that with power sanding I'll get to the bottom of it without digging in to deep.

    I haven't started on this project yet, just getting my game plan in order and a materials list going.

    My biggest dilemma is choice of spray gun. I just can't get that Sagola 4600 out of my head lol...
    just like buying a good compressor, i don't think i've ever heard someone say they regret buying a great spray gun. i'm using a 4400 and find it fits my style very well. the 4600 is a faster gun. i thought about getting one (4600), but for now i'm ok with the older one. i do recommend getting the dekups adapter or equivalent, as being able to spray at any angle is well worth it.
    b marler

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by S-C View Post
    Ronf, Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts on my project.

    This is the type of feedback Iím looking for.

    I was thinking about sanding the entire top with the various sanders I have and then using a wire wheel on the rust spots in order to get into the crevices left behind, then cleaning the entire area with a wipe down of acetone prior to prime.

    Question: Anything wrong with using a wire wheel?

    Question: Acetone ok for the wipe down, or something else?

    Thanks for the tip on the primer/filler, (works as a guide coat too) didnít know such a thing existed.

    I appreciate your feedback on spray guns; this is where Iím having trouble deciding.

    I really, really like that Sagola 4600 Len referred to, but it is pricey for the amount of painting Iíll ever do. Would love that for my last gun! A good used one would be just fine too!

    The DeVilbiss Finishline gun Len suggested looks ok too.

    Ron, you mentioned DeVilbiss FLG, are these two guns the same? If not, can you elaborate more on them?
    Thanks
    The only time I use a wire wheel is on heavy gauge steel (just as my friend bmarler points out) such as the chassis where I intend to use a conversion product as wire wheels just produce too much heat as well as impregnate the sheet metal with bits of iron oxide. I go too extremes to remove rust as these builds take a lot of time, money and energy to complete and the last thing I want is a failure down the road due to rust returning.
    I have no doubt you would love that Segola gun and you can bet if Len is using it, it's a quality gun. I often get asked about high end quality guns and my answer is always the same; these guns are designed to produce the best atomization possible which will reduce your time for color sanding and buff out. Just as important is the guns ability to produce the same finish car after car, year after year, with little to no maintenance and lastly the speed in which a production shop can get the job done. Weigh all these values when determining what gun best fits your style and needs. The number one factor behind spraying out a quality finish is the person behind the gun (experience). I have been around painters all my adult life (yes I'm old now) and some of these individuals still use and produce the most unbelievable finishes with cheap guns, ones I wouldn't even consider for shooting primer with. After weighing all the variables and finally opt for a gun, get as much experience behind that gun as you can before shooting final finishes. I'm sure Len and I were referring to the same Devilbiss Finish line guns, mine specifically is the FLG 670 solvent borne gun only, I believe the waterborne is 671 but don't quote me on that. One of the reason I like this gun for new painters or painters coming back to the market after being out for a while, is it comes with 3 tips that can spray all required car finish products, allowing the new user to get use to the guns characteristics when shooting less critical materials such as epoxy primer, spray fillers, etc., before moving on to bc/cc or ss. Hope this helps and keep us posted.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by S-C View Post
    Ronf, Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts on my project.

    This is the type of feedback Iím looking for.

    I was thinking about sanding the entire top with the various sanders I have and then using a wire wheel on the rust spots in order to get into the crevices left behind, then cleaning the entire area with a wipe down of acetone prior to prime.

    Question: Anything wrong with using a wire wheel?

    Question: Acetone ok for the wipe down, or something else?

    Thanks for the tip on the primer/filler, (works as a guide coat too) didnít know such a thing existed.

    I appreciate your feedback on spray guns; this is where Iím having trouble deciding.

    I really, really like that Sagola 4600 Len referred to, but it is pricey for the amount of painting Iíll ever do. Would love that for my last gun! A good used one would be just fine too!

    The DeVilbiss Finishline gun Len suggested looks ok too.

    Ron, you mentioned DeVilbiss FLG, are these two guns the same? If not, can you elaborate more on them?
    Thanks
    BTW, don't use acetone prior to spraying primer (or any other car finish coating), you willing be setting yourself up for a solvent pop later (sometimes even weeks or months later). Just use grease and wax remover prior to applying any and all coatings. Only time I use acetone is prior to applying primer on fiberglass substrates only, followed by G&W remover on proceeding product coatings. When I get to the finishing stages of either bc/cc or ss, I first scrub the project with a scotch brite pad using "Dawn" dish washing soap in luke warm water (Dawn contains no silicone) followed by G&W remover and finish up with a tack cloth. Now I'm ready to shoot paint.

  15. #15
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    Ron, thanks once again for your feedback!

    I really do appreciate everyone that has taken time out of their daily life just to help make my project go a little smoother with fewer problemsÖThanks Guys!!

    The advice you all have provided will no doubt save me hours of frustration.

    I am taking notes and will keep you abreast of my progress.

    Special thanks to Len for creating such a great site. I feel honored to be part of it!

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