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Thread: Eastwood Epoxy under Finish 1 High Build?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Posts
    15

    Default Eastwood Epoxy under Finish 1 High Build?

    Clarification question first:
    Does cross-link happen when using dis-similar products like Urethan and Epoxy - I want Epoxy first then, within re-coat window, spray High Build Urethane for easy blocking.

    I am painting an entire car for the first time with this project. It is my wife's daily driver and I hope to keep it for another 10 years.
    There are many mistakes I could make preparing the bodywork for paint, and I feel that the best insurance I can have for a lasting job is to put down an epoxy primer, then during the recoat window, lay down a high-build 2k Urethane primer so that I have something easy to work with and block the car before putting down the basecoat. I have chosen Sherwin Williams to provide all of my paint supplies, but I am baulking a little at the cost of their epoxy primer, which is $240 for a gallon with a quart of activator. I saw that Eastwood's (kirker?) epoxy primer is a $100 for a gallon with a gallon of activator.

    The question in short: Can I,
    Spray two coats of Eastwood Epoxy Primer
    Extend the flash time to 60minutes for heavy recoating
    Then Spray two coats of Urethane 2K Primer from Sherwin Williams: Finish 1 2K HS Urethane Primer FP410
    I am sure I could wait 5 days, SAND, then spray the Finish 1 Urethane and everything would be fine. But I really want the cross-link that happens when spraying right away.

    I fear an adverse reaction of Eastwood and Finish 1 products.
    Looking at the Data Sheets, I may have answered my own question, but I will continue for posterity
    The Finish 1 data sheet, list Epoxy Primer as a suitable substrate... "Refinish Lacquers, Enamels, and Urethanes"
    The Eastwood 2K Urethan High Build Primer description says: "May be applied over Eastwood Epoxy primers"

    I feel like I have (5) options

    1) Paint using the two different primer manufacturers during the re-coat window, and hope they cross-link and don't react adversely
    2) Paint using the two different primer manufacturers, but with 5 days later, sanding the epoxy before spraying the Urethane
    3) Return the Finish 1 and get the Eastwood High Build Urethane Primer to be safe (I bought the Finish 1 over a month ago, no sure I can return it)
    4) Bite the bullet and buy the expensive Sherwin Williams Epoxy Primer
    5) Is there another combo of Primers you would recommend?

    I supposed I do a test spray on a practice part, but then I'm not returning any products. Any tips on what to look for if I do a test spray?
    Also, to be completely honest, I've spent a lot of time and money on the project and I'm really anxious to be done spending both. All of the paint at this point is going on credit cards.



    Thanks for reading all of this!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    99

    Default Epoxy and 2K primer

    I have used the Kirker epoxy and 2k primer under several different brands of paint and had excellent results bit there are a few things you need to know about. The instructions are not entirely accurate.

    The epoxy is quality stuff but you have to be sure to spray it at 70 degrees or higher and let it dry over night before spraying the 2K. I tried following their directions and had nothing but trouble. Any time I sprayed it and gave it a one hour dry time, it felt dry to the touch but if you spay anything over it, it looked good for a while and then later had a rough finish to it. I sprayed some once at 80 degrees in the day time, it cooled down to 60 at night left it over night and it still was not completely dry the next day. If your doing it this time of year put some heat lamps on it and monitor the temperature of the parts with a lazer thermometer. It takes warmer temps and longer dry times than what they tell you in the directions.

    The 2K is quality stuff too but you need a larger tip than what they recommend and it gives you a much smoother finish if you add some reducer. They say in the directions that the reducer is optional, like you really do not need it. I always add .5, that's point 5 reducer and it makes a lot of difference. I usually use a 1.8 tip.

    As far as the compatability with your top coats you will have to do a test panel. I would recommend you do a test panel that includes everything you plan to do. Epoxy, 2k, sealer if used, base coat and clear. Also be sure to monitor the temperature with your thermometer at night when it usually cools down. Then watch that for a day or two as I have seen problems crop up days later if the undercoats are not completely dry, usually due to cool temps, too thick an application, or too short dry times. What ever you do write it all down so if it works you repeat it later with the same results.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    lower Michigan
    Posts
    24,515

    Default

    I'm curious why you are using epoxy primer followed by a fill primer ? There are several brands of DTM high fill primer that work great. DTM stands for Direct To Metal primer which means you don't need to spray epoxy first then fill primer. What I'm getting at is you can skip the epoxy and go straight to fill primer.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    41,191

    Default

    Read the "technical data sheet (TDS) for the products you're using. Some filler primers recommend applying epoxy primer over bare metal and some don't.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Posts
    15

    Default

    Due to sentimental value and now real money invested, I hope to keep this car for another 10+ years.

    I understand that Epoxy is king for durability and bond strength. It also sounds like it is more forgiving to what it will bond to.

    Due to some fender benders in the past, most of the car has been resprayed, about 10 years ago. The newer clear coat has failed across the car. Lifting and flaking off in tiny spots on almost every panel of the car.
    I sanded off the clear coat from the entire car (minus the roof which is still original clear). I have tried to also sand off most of the paint while saving the factory e-coat. There are of course a number of places where I have sanded through to metal.

    As an amateur and first timer, I worry about all the ways this could go wrong. I have a wide variety of surfaces I am spraying primer onto: Metal, paint, body filler, clear coat, adhesion promoter for the bumpers, and though I am prepared to clean/clean/clean, probably over some dirt/wax/grease that I miss. From what I've been reading, Epoxy seems like a good choice for me. I still want to block the car, so I would follow with a High-Build primer.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Posts
    15

    Default

    This is stellar advice!! Thank you so much for taking the time to explain all of this.

    I feel like Epoxy is still the way to go for the first coat. Unless I'm missing something, or over thinking this.


    Quote Originally Posted by HotRodMan View Post
    I have used the Kirker epoxy and 2k primer under several different brands of paint and had excellent results bit there are a few things you need to know about. The instructions are not entirely accurate.

    The epoxy is quality stuff but you have to be sure to spray it at 70 degrees or higher and let it dry over night before spraying the 2K. I tried following their directions and had nothing but trouble. Any time I sprayed it and gave it a one hour dry time, it felt dry to the touch but if you spay anything over it, it looked good for a while and then later had a rough finish to it. I sprayed some once at 80 degrees in the day time, it cooled down to 60 at night left it over night and it still was not completely dry the next day. If your doing it this time of year put some heat lamps on it and monitor the temperature of the parts with a lazer thermometer. It takes warmer temps and longer dry times than what they tell you in the directions.

    The 2K is quality stuff too but you need a larger tip than what they recommend and it gives you a much smoother finish if you add some reducer. They say in the directions that the reducer is optional, like you really do not need it. I always add .5, that's point 5 reducer and it makes a lot of difference. I usually use a 1.8 tip.

    As far as the compatability with your top coats you will have to do a test panel. I would recommend you do a test panel that includes everything you plan to do. Epoxy, 2k, sealer if used, base coat and clear. Also be sure to monitor the temperature with your thermometer at night when it usually cools down. Then watch that for a day or two as I have seen problems crop up days later if the undercoats are not completely dry, usually due to cool temps, too thick an application, or too short dry times. What ever you do write it all down so if it works you repeat it later with the same results.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Posts
    15

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    This is stellar advice!! Thank you so much for taking the time to explain all of this.

    I feel like Epoxy is still the way to go for the first coat. Unless I'm missing something, or over thinking this.

    I thought this was a common, solid way to repaint an entire car that has been sanded down to bare metal. Epoxy for durable substrate, metal protection. Then High-Build on top for blocking. I don't have a lot of bare metal, but I have enough spots, especially around edges, doors, and body filler to be concerned.

    Is Epoxy superior for sticking power and durability?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    417

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    I thought this was a common, solid way to repaint an entire car that has been sanded down to bare metal. Epoxy for durable substrate, metal protection. Then High-Build on top for blocking. I don't have a lot of bare metal, but I have enough spots, especially around edges, doors, and body filler to be concerned.

    Is Epoxy superior for sticking power and durability?
    As Phil V and Len have stated it depends on the hb primer you are using. For a product going over bare metal it has to be a DTM product. Because I use the Evercoat Slick Sand and/or their G2 feather fill I always use an epoxy primer prior to the application of these products as it is called for in their P sheet. Here is a quote from the Evercoat Slick Sand TDS "Untreated Steel, Galvanized Steel and Bare Aluminum must be treated with a high quality epoxy primer prior to the application of Slick Sand", their G2 Feather Fill TDS reads the same. Personally I like to hit everything with epoxy primer after sanding the original surface, regardless if I go down to bare metal or not. While this can sometimes add time and expense when not needed, it gives me the comfort in knowing that my panels are well protected for future use without the fear of rusting if there is a delay in the repair as well as avoiding adhesion problems.

    Cross-link generally refers to applying lacquer or enamel over urethane or any combination there of. Here is another quote from a P sheet on the epoxy I use (PPG DPLF)
    "Caution: When DPLF is sprayed over lacquer substrates or basecoat that is not crosslinked,
    and then allowed to set overnight before applying another coat of primer or a topcoat,
    lifting can occur. This can be avoided by applying the DPLF Epoxy Primer, color and
    clear coat in the same day or by adding 5% of DX57 RTS DBC."
    Cross-link problems can best be avoided by talking to your Jobber, they can ensure that you don't cross-link a product and have poor adhesion or you can come here and ask. When researching materials you will find there are many brands and each brand will have a multitude of products to choose from that range from cheap to expensive. I like how Len has stated this over and over again, you get what you pay for. For instance I pay around $325 for a gallon of the DPLF primer (includes catalyst) and generally go through a gallon per month as long as I'm not doing a full car shot (I'm not a production shop). So where does this put your $100 dollar primer in the scheme of things? I have no idea as I have no knowledge of that primer, this is just food for thought.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Posts
    15

    Default

    Hi Everyone.

    Thank you for all the input. Based on your advice I have decided to go with Eastwood.
    The Eastwood Datasheets specifically call out using the two products together.
    The Sherwin Williams products Dimensions Epoxy and Finish 1 HB do not.

    I almost went with SPI products, but it was significantly more money. I think a middle of the road Eastwood line used appropriately will be fine for restoring our family daily driver.

    My end stages will be:
    Eastwood Epoxy Primer - 2 coats
    Eastwood 2K Primer - 2 or 3 coats.
    Then block, glaze, spot prime, and baby for a week.
    Then in one day:
    ATX paint
    Finish 1 Universal Clear

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Posts
    15

    Default

    Quick taping question.

    I plan to spray the Epoxy Primer, then allow the 6hrs Len recommended before spraying the high-build primer.
    Due to scheduling conflicts, it will be actually be 20 hrs before I can spray the high-build primer.

    Can I leave the tape on over this 20 - 24hr period, or do I need to pull the tape after spraying the Epoxy?

    When you guys pull tape between layers, how do you re-tape? Do you go for exactly the same line, or do you extend past or into the previous layer?

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    olympia,wa
    Posts
    909

    Default

    i wouldn't re-tape in that instance. you're going to sand the primer anyway so if there's a spec of dust or two no big deal. i'd just blow and wipe and call it good. UNLESS you used plastic masking that will release the epoxy as you spray near it. that would need to be re-covered. you could leave the first tape line and just replace the paper/plastic.
    b marler

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