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Thread: dash pad trouble

  1. #1

    Default dash pad trouble

    dash.jpg
    dash1.jpg

    So I got a new dash pad for my Camaro, used dish soap and water scrubbed it with a brush, scuffed with grey scotchbrite,wiped with wax grease remover, then wiped with final wash, sprayed with 3m adhesion promoter and painted with water born paint, the 2 coats flat clear. I spent 2 days carefully assembling, near the end I pushed a corner down and the paint de laminated like skin after a sun burn. as you can see in the picture it peels like sun burn skin also. The painting instructions were folded up in the bag of dash clips so I never read them until I unpackaged them for installation. Any suggestions how to proceed, follow directions?

    Jim

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
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    241

    Default I think you know the answer already

    Quote Originally Posted by JMTC View Post
    dash.jpg
    dash1.jpg

    So I got a new dash pad for my Camaro, used dish soap and water scrubbed it with a brush, scuffed with grey scotchbrite,wiped with wax grease remover, then wiped with final wash, sprayed with 3m adhesion promoter and painted with water born paint, the 2 coats flat clear. I spent 2 days carefully assembling, near the end I pushed a corner down and the paint de laminated like skin after a sun burn. as you can see in the picture it peels like sun burn skin also. The painting instructions were folded up in the bag of dash clips so I never read them until I unpackaged them for installation. Any suggestions how to proceed, follow directions?

    Jim
    I don't want to be the one to give the bad news but I think you already know the answer. I hate that you have already been through this much work only to start over but I'm afraid that is the case. I have done 2 or 3 dash pads and center consoles with no problems of de-lamination. I use a commercially available product for painting an upholstery/dash pad. These products have a flexibilizer already in their product. What bothers me with your included pad is the included instructions, I think they have a lot to be desired for a color change. Try looking through this companies web site, I have used their products and have had great results. https://www.colorbondpaint.com/

    I've also used a company LMR.com, while they are a little higher in cost their stuff works great and they have great tech support.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
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    12,163

    Default Who is?

    Quote Originally Posted by JMTC View Post
    dash.jpg
    dash1.jpg

    So I got a new dash pad for my Camaro, used dish soap and water scrubbed it with a brush, scuffed with grey scotchbrite,wiped with wax grease remover, then wiped with final wash, sprayed with 3m adhesion promoter and painted with water born paint, the 2 coats flat clear. I spent 2 days carefully assembling, near the end I pushed a corner down and the paint de laminated like skin after a sun burn. as you can see in the picture it peels like sun burn skin also. The painting instructions were folded up in the bag of dash clips so I never read them until I unpackaged them for installation. Any suggestions how to proceed, follow directions?

    Jim
    Hello Jim.

    Who is the manufacturer of your dash pad? Is it perhaps the LMR company Ronf is talking about? Follow the web site of the manufacturer of your part including emails or phone calls to revive this piece. Couple points:

    I think what hurt you was obviously adhesion. But cause by 1.) wax & grease remover, 2.) adhesion promoter, 3. paint and clear you used.

    They say use lacquer paint. I would say go to an Autozone or Autopalace and buy a can or two of DUPLICOLOR (EXACT MATCH) spray can paint. Color is what shows on the cap. They call it a base coat (it is lacquer paint) but you could use it on the inside as it is (actually lasts on the outside as well) and you'll have a dull sheen to it.

    First thing you need to do is get whatever contaminant affected the adhesion problem in your first application.

    Years ago I used lacquer spray paint similar to the Duplicolor on dash pads we changed out from metal to padded. I went from a dark blue to a tan or tan to a burgundy without a problem and no other top coating. It got hot parked in the sun with no ill signs.

    Now, I have used lacquer thinner on a cloth in one hand to wipe onto a piece and dry off with a clean towel in my other hand. Never a problem if handled right. Keep us posted. (Shortly this problem will be a memory!)

    Henry

  4. #4

    Default

    Thanks Ron, the bottom of that sheet says it was printed in 2002, I am sure things have changed a lot since then in the paint industry.

    All the other plastic is ok, Just the dash pad needs to be re-done. I had the paint mixed by a friend who runs a body shop, Its a Heinz 57 mix and likely not reproducible.
    I have enough left to do pad again. I would hate to tape that instrument cluster trim again and everything else to change color.
    Should I peel the paint off the pad, prime with urethane primer and try peeling it off. It just needs to stick a bit better. I am reaching the end of my rope on this project. lol
    Thanks Jim

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
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    241

    Default Best advice I can give

    Quote Originally Posted by JMTC View Post
    Thanks Ron, the bottom of that sheet says it was printed in 2002, I am sure things have changed a lot since then in the paint industry.

    All the other plastic is ok, Just the dash pad needs to be re-done. I had the paint mixed by a friend who runs a body shop, Its a Heinz 57 mix and likely not reproducible.
    I have enough left to do pad again. I would hate to tape that instrument cluster trim again and everything else to change color.
    Should I peel the paint off the pad, prime with urethane primer and try peeling it off. It just needs to stick a bit better. I am reaching the end of my rope on this project. lol
    Thanks Jim
    Jim,

    I understand this is not easy and it's pushing your limits however, this de-lamination is a big issue. Imagine if you were to make the product your using stick and then get it to install without flaking off. then 6 Months down the road it starts to peel again after everything is back together and you want to enjoy your ride. Maybe take a step back for a day or 2 and approach it again. When it comes to coating a surface, any surface, I go to the professional coating manufactures with a known good history of a proven product for advice or as your doing here I seek help from those that have been there, done that with good results. "Maybe" that water base paint can work but I seriously have my doubts. My best advise is to copy and forward our conversation here and forward it to LMR.com or colorbondpaint.com and get their opinion. I know LMR has great tech support with quick answers, I have no connection or monetary gain with them other than they have given me some great advice in the past. What stands out to me is your lack of a urethane primer per the instructions which is there to give you a chemical bond, after that you used water base paint, I have zero experience in water base paint and can give no advice for such. Below is my latest contact with LMR that you might find interesting and seems to conform with your dash pad painting instructions with a "lacquer based" product. Hope this helps.


    Trey Pridemore (LMR.COM)

    May 7, 3:24 PM CDT
    Hello Ron,

    Our interior paints are lacquer based with a flex agent. This allows them to be used on armrest pads and items that will flex. However, keep in mind this agent does thin the paint and will require more coats than a normal paint

    Thank You,

    Trey Pridemore
    Customer Service Supervisor

    Call Me Direct At (254) 296-6522

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
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    241

    Default After thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by JMTC View Post
    dash.jpg
    dash1.jpg

    So I got a new dash pad for my Camaro, used dish soap and water scrubbed it with a brush, scuffed with grey scotchbrite,wiped with wax grease remover, then wiped with final wash, sprayed with 3m adhesion promoter and painted with water born paint, the 2 coats flat clear. I spent 2 days carefully assembling, near the end I pushed a corner down and the paint de laminated like skin after a sun burn. as you can see in the picture it peels like sun burn skin also. The painting instructions were folded up in the bag of dash clips so I never read them until I unpackaged them for installation. Any suggestions how to proceed, follow directions?

    Jim
    Jim,

    After reading henry's post a couple more thoughts came to mind (thanks henry). Like you, I clean the surface with DW soap, warm water and scotch brite, I don't use W&G remover on plastic, leather, Naugahyde, etc., I use de-nature alcohol after the deep cleaning with the aforementioned solution/scotch pad. I allow the alcohol to off gas for several hours before applying my adhesive promoter. On your Heinz 57 color, if you have a really good local jobber, your color can be matched and mixed into a rattle can that utilizes the lacquer base with a flex agent. I am just having a problem with using a water base paint for this application , but like I said, I have zero experience with water base.

  7. #7

    Default OER

    The dash is an OER unit. I have been reading horror stories all over the web about peoples dashes peeling just like mine.
    Thanks Ron, and Henry.
    Of course no one told me what I wanted to hear. Lol
    I failed in the prep department, asked too much of the adhesion promoter, put water born paint directly on urethane.
    Obtaining a proper color on line is not going to happen, I tried there is no paint code just "blue"
    Doing long road trips visiting automotive paint suppliers hoping one will match my color makes me cringe.
    With your input I think I will wash with dish soap and warm water, wipe down with thinners when dry, skip adhesion promoter and prime with urethane primer.
    When primer dries I will pick and twist it to see if it stuck, If so I will paint with the paint I have because now paint is sticking to primer not urethane dash.
    Thanks again for your input

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    12,163

    Default Whole plan...

    Quote Originally Posted by JMTC View Post
    The dash is an OER unit. I have been reading horror stories all over the web about peoples dashes peeling just like mine.
    Thanks Ron, and Henry.
    Of course no one told me what I wanted to hear. Lol
    I failed in the prep department, asked too much of the adhesion promoter, put water born paint directly on urethane.
    Obtaining a proper color on line is not going to happen, I tried there is no paint code just "blue"
    Doing long road trips visiting automotive paint suppliers hoping one will match my color makes me cringe.
    With your input I think I will wash with dish soap and warm water, wipe down with thinners when dry, skip adhesion promoter and prime with urethane primer.
    When primer dries I will pick and twist it to see if it stuck, If so I will paint with the paint I have because now paint is sticking to primer not urethane dash.
    Thanks again for your input
    If it were mine, I would hold off on the urethane primer to find out what specific paint chemistry you will use for the color.

    Also, when you say you will be painting on the primer not the dash material, say that softly because 'coating' will tend to penetrate, bite into, or bite right thru what they are applied to.

    If you go the company that wants lacquer as their paint, I would not introduce urethane into the mix. Also, be careful if you sand the dash. I would sooner try a scuff as needed for adhesion after cleaning. Too much or too aggressive the sanding will put you through the surface into the grain of the fabric/material which would not be good.

    Spraying - spray light coats and allow to dry of whatever you use. Building up gradually would give you a better result (I would think). Good luck, it will work out and keep us posted.

    Henry

  9. #9

    Default

    You state that you used a 3m adhesion promoter.

    Do you have part numbers? To my knowledge, 3m doesnít offer a pre-paint adhesion promoter.

  10. #10

    Default

    3m.jpg
    I just read the back of can "not to be used on polyurethane parts" got this from carquest assumed adhesion promoter was adhesion promoter.

  11. #11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry View Post
    If it were mine, I would hold off on the urethane primer to find out what specific paint chemistry you will use for the color.

    Also, when you say you will be painting on the primer not the dash material, say that softly because 'coating' will tend to penetrate, bite into, or bite right thru what they are applied to.

    If you go the company that wants lacquer as their paint, I would not introduce urethane into the mix. Also, be careful if you sand the dash. I would sooner try a scuff as needed for adhesion after cleaning. Too much or too aggressive the sanding will put you through the surface into the grain of the fabric/material which would not be good.

    Spraying - spray light coats and allow to dry of whatever you use. Building up gradually would give you a better result (I would think). Good luck, it will work out and keep us posted.

    Henry
    I took dash back apart yesterday, a lot of the paint blew off with shop air, some was stuck well. I tested chemical stripper on a hidden spot and it worked with no damage to dash. I will finish tonight maybe.
    The manufacture of the dash says coat with urethane primer, so that is what I will do. The waterborne paint I had mixed is a perfect match to the original, I have everything else painted including center console, steering wheel, steering column, everything that was blue and it came out perfect.
    So when the dash pad is in urethane primer it should be like painting any other part that is in primer state, so I will take my chances and use the remaining paint I have on hand. If it fails in 6 months, at least I will have a soft carpet to lay on while removing all those screws.

    I have to research if this dash is TPO AP compatable. the 3m can says there are letters stamped on the part.

  12. #12

    Default

    That adhesion promoter is design to help 2 part plastic repair material adhere to the plastic during damage repair. It isnít designed for paint/ refinishing.

    You would be in a better position by treating the dash pad as if it were an unprimed bumper cover.

    I usually use Transtarís Mul-tie or bulldog adhesion promoter on bare plastic.

    In my opinion, the waterbased paint isnít going to have enough flex/ stretch to stay on the pad without cracking.

  13. #13
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    Nov 2005
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    40,132

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FatboyHarley View Post
    That adhesion promoter is design to help 2 part plastic repair material adhere to the plastic during damage repair. It isnít designed for paint/ refinishing.

    You would be in a better position by treating the dash pad as if it were an unprimed bumper cover.

    I usually use Transtarís Mul-tie or bulldog adhesion promoter on bare plastic.

    In my opinion, the waterbased paint isnít going to have enough flex/ stretch to stay on the pad without cracking.
    There are several adhesion promoters used to help paint adhere to the surface. We've used just about all of them.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
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    241

    Default Releasing agent

    Quote Originally Posted by JMTC View Post
    I took dash back apart yesterday, a lot of the paint blew off with shop air, some was stuck well. I tested chemical stripper on a hidden spot and it worked with no damage to dash. I will finish tonight maybe.
    The manufacture of the dash says coat with urethane primer, so that is what I will do. The waterborne paint I had mixed is a perfect match to the original, I have everything else painted including center console, steering wheel, steering column, everything that was blue and it came out perfect.
    So when the dash pad is in urethane primer it should be like painting any other part that is in primer state, so I will take my chances and use the remaining paint I have on hand. If it fails in 6 months, at least I will have a soft carpet to lay on while removing all those screws.

    I have to research if this dash is TPO AP compatable. the 3m can says there are letters stamped on the part.
    This almost sounds like mold releasing agent was still on the cover, this is one of the reasons I use rubbing alcohol after cleaning with water and Dw soap. The fact that some areas seemed to adhere well kinda backs that up. I've even done a "no hand pressure" 2000g wet sanding (wrapped around a fiber pad) to make sure releasing agent was completely removed. Bulldog adhesion promoter that FB spoke of is another product I've used in the past with great results, just make sure you shake the can very well and often or it sputters. As I said before I have no experience in water borne paints but I think your right in giving it a shot since all your other panels are completed and match, just really have my doubts to sustainability.

  15. #15

    Default

    Stopped in to see body shop buddy who mixed my paint (really hate bothering him) he said the same thing "mold release a agent" he has/uses a mold release agent solvent thats designed just for getting that stuff off, will get some from him this go around.
    He has a big bin full of bumper covers he has replaced, he uses mild soap then this solvent, adhesion promoter then water borne paint then clear with flex agent.
    I will be doing the same thing on the dash pad. Why do you think it wont stand up? I am priming grey also so I wont need as much paint to cover, only have about 200ml of paint left
    I am self employed I took Thurs Fri off this was a long weekend so sat sun mon to work on this car and i'm back where I was weeks ago. Like you said take a couple days and the anguish goes away and one can think clearly again.
    Jim

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