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Thread: Spray Gun Education "SATA"

  1. #91
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    Default Hey guys - Even better than good!!!

    Phil & Dave each have their points to make. Then came along member 'baubau' who is a shop owner that DEPENDS on flow rate. (I myself do not) but I'm not painting everyday all day so, it's a moot point for me.

    I think this is one of those situations where good information has been put out and hopefully will be used by those who it may well apply to.

    Therefore, there is NO RIGHT & there is NO WRONG but rather what applies to you specifically. Just too many variables. Good luck to us all.

    Henry

  2. #92
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    Default

    Good post, Henry. Well said.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by PainterDave View Post
    Phil V;377726]What you posted did not offend me, why would it offend me ? I call bullshit when it see it and your transfer efficiency explanation was bullshit. It is not my explanation just some information i passed along from the guys doing the test On the other hand I understand and agree up to a point that spray gun flow rate is relevant to someone who can apply that information to real life applications. I feel like a lot of guys here could benefit from flow rate, more so for the guys that use a particular gun and can afford that gun model or can afford that gun model and simply dont want to spend the money, this guy can match up flow rates between brands and stay consistent, creating a consistence finish is key in production

    This is the mentality that I find objectionable -- Quote from Painterdave -- " i am far from being a expert, but i am one of the best painters in my industry sir " (end quote). i am in fact one of the best in MY industry, you have never even asked what that is ? maybe saying more Diversified would be a better term ? Polyurea, spray chrome, Akzo, BASF, PPG, SW, Valspar, Matthews, wood coatings, aviation, automotive, furniture, you name it i spray it, i say what i say because most painters stay in one field, i have been fortunate to be able to be skilled in all these trades, therefore yes i consider myself top notch in my industry, not to mention the high standards im able to meet. if you want to shoot me a email ill share some of what i do with you, i can not post it publicly do to trade secrets and contracts with GM, Mercedes, Porsche, BMW to name a few. Who would post something like that ? I AM an expert painter and I would never sayyoure far from a expert sir"I am one of the best painters in the industry" . There ARE some fantastic professional painters out there but I don't see you as one of them. again sir, you dont really know me or what i do to have a opinion one way or another. You're more into the information fine details of paint guns and I think you got a big head from going to Sata "school". i am actually a very humble guy and love passing on my knowledge to upcoming painters, some of the new guys teach me a lot as well. my claim to being one of the best (in my industry) isn't because i can lay down paint, or because i can airbrush (because i cant airbrush a stick figure) education is a big part of it, being able to spray more coatings than most and im willing to learn, listen, and be trained, a valuable tool in this business. you said you been painting 50 years the same way, well sir that means you was good 50 years ago, not today. I'm not out to insult you, just saying what I see. There are infinite numbers of combinations between spray guns and the materials we spray. And to quote formula's that cover all or even most of them is just silly. TE covers ALL spray equipment, HVLP, airless, turbine, etc take some time to read the links i posted. nothing i posted was MY opinion. i stated the facts with DIRECT links to them. yet you cant post ONE fact of info discrediting me. that sir is why you are ignorant, not to be offensive, all it means is you are uneducated about this subject and carry on an on and on

    The single thing that governs whether a paint job comes out good or great is the PERSON USING THE SPRAY GUN. The best spray guns in the world in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to use it is just about guaranteed to end up with a crappy paint job.EXACTLY why this info is important to someone that wants to grow and be more in this industry. the more you know the better your chances at success.




    take care Phil, i wish you the best buddy and if there is a time you need some help ill be here to help if i can.
    Quote from painterdave -- "i wish you the best buddy and if there is a time you need some help ill be here to help if i can." (end quote)

    first of all I'm not your buddy. and for the second part - I wouldn't sit by the phone waiting for my call. LOL

    What is your "industry" that you're the best in, Dave ? I have been painting for close to 50 years and obviously not the same way since the materials and the guns I have painted with have been changing steadily up to and including the materials and guns WE ALL use today (at least in auto body refinishing). I can speak for refinishing furniture. Not my thing. I can't tell you publicly all the things I have worked on because the CIA would come knocking on my door. LOL I hope automotive painting will treat you as well as it has treated me for the last 50 years. Let me know in another 40 years.

  4. #94
    PainterDave Guest

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    "Refinishing" Phil, all types of coatings.

    i left automotive 8 years ago, if you seen any paint work i posted that's all side work and just for fun.


    i have no hands on experience straightening metal, never welded, i leave all that to the other pros

    simply one of the better ones in "refinishing" and other special coatings,

  5. #95
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    Default Thanks...

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil V View Post
    Good post, Henry. Well said.
    Thanks Phil.

    I like to think we all try our best and as long as we reach our objective, the target, the mission than it really doesn't matter what we did to get there. There are new ways, and those will get old too and fall to more sets of "new ways".

    I'm glad we all got as far as we did, the way we did without incident.

    AMEN!

    Henry

  6. #96
    PainterDave Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Henry View Post
    Thanks Phil.

    I like to think we all try our best and as long as we reach our objective, the target, the mission than it really doesn't matter what we did to get there. There are new ways, and those will get old too and fall to more sets of "new ways".

    I'm glad we all got as far as we did, the way we did without incident.

    AMEN!

    Henry

    Henry... "without indecent" ? not me... i have screwed up a lot of stuff to get here haha

  7. #97
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    Default Maybe but...

    Quote Originally Posted by PainterDave View Post
    Henry... "without indecent" ? not me... i have screwed up a lot of stuff to get here haha
    Most of 'us' learned by doing. Fortunately, we ended up with a mentor (maybe) but sad state of affairs was upon us. Yes, we were THOSE people. Good thing was we had motor oil running through out veins which kept us going.

    Yeah, we had spray guns, often borrowed and we did a lot of primer over filler or bare metal and tons of wet block sanding.

    Hey, guys, yeah you all from the muscle car era, regardless what you drove, we worked hard but hell, we had a good time.

    So yeah, Dave, we too screwed things up too but learned quickly and better because of it.

    Len, Phil, LS6, all others, yes we did have a great time.

    Henry

  8. #98
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    Default OK, I'll jump in

    So we have some truth, some bullshit and some lies. Time for a reality check.

    Transfer efficiency matters and it doesn't matter if you're putting all of the paint onto the panel or you're not. It's a way of comparing the efficiency of one gun to another and that's about it but that's a very important it. Over spray doesn't help anybody. If one gun can produce an equal finish to another and does so with less over spray it's the winner as you're going to use less paint.

    We constantly fight this never ending battle between quality of finish and wasting paint (a.k.a. polluting the air and clogging our booth filters.) The biggest game changer in the history of paint guns was the Iwata LPH400LV. With its introduction of pre-atomization technology using the split nozzle this gun could get a great finish using less air and produce less overspray at the same time. Here in the West it is still the overwhelming spray gun of choice particularly for basecoat with the orange aircap.

    I have 13 SATA spray guns so apparently I don't hate SATA but SATA has made several BAD spray guns.

    The Nr2000 both RP and HVLP were winners for their time.
    The 3000 was garbage and a clear step back from the Nr2000
    The 4000 was even worse garbage. SATA totally lost its way with this loser.
    The 5000 enabled SATA to get it's groove back and is a fine gun.
    The 5500X appears to be a really good gun as well and the I nozzle configuration finally gets it to mimic the Iwata spray pattern.

    Iwata

    LPH400LV in its three aircap forms silver, orange and purple.
    (Technological breakthrough and still a very fine gun - but a little slow for some people especially when doing complete cars)
    W400LV - Compliant version and a true killer. Had the speed the LPH lacked.
    Supernova - Best you can do. LS400 for base and WS400 for clear. Can't be beat.

    DeVilbiss

    PLUS Gun - capable of very good finishes but it does waste a lot of paint - would never use it for basecoat since you'll waste a lot but since clear is cheaper than basecoat, and it can lay down glass smooth clear at 40 PSIG it had its place in the world. Jon Kosmoski liked and used it so it can't be too bad. A bit dated now but for absolute performance, if you can live with the over spray, it's capable of a show car finish damn near off the gun.

    Tekna with the 7E7 aircap is a very good gun. Problem it shares with all DeVilbiss guns is the Teflon baffle seal. Iwata and Sagola can make guns without these seals why can't DeVilbiss. Even the new DV1 still uses this seal. That's ridiculous. SATA got rid of it with the 5500X.

    Pro-Lite - the TE20 seems to be the pick of the litter with respect to aircap selection. Very good gun and very popular, particularly in Europe, much more so than SATA which is far more popular in the USA than it is in Europe and particularly Germany.

    Sagola

    Great spray guns from a lousy company. This is at least the case in the United States which they treat like a red haired step child. Probably the number one gun in Europe. Guns are top notch. Service and marketing in the USA sucks. They have entered and left the American market at least three times that I personally know of and God only knows how long they will stay here this time. Damn shame, their products are great.

    Speed of Different Spray Guns

    With respect to the flow rate argument. There are only two ways to get more flow out of a spray gun. You can do it the SATA way which is to totally disregard the metric system and call something a 1.4mm tip when it in fact is a 1.6mm which you can easily tell with a simple set of numbered drills or you can do it the DeVilbiss way which is to make the internal venturi in the spray gun body which creates the vacuum that draws the fluid from the cup stronger.

    SATA and DeVilbiss - true hoses. Pros love them but might put out too much material for somebody that doesn't spray very often.

    Iwata - WS400 and W400LV just as fast as SATA and DeVilbiss but LPH400LV is considerably slower. For collision repair the LPH400LV might be the best choice as if offers the most control. With the orange cap it does great blends and with the weird purple cap it can match damn near anything including the worst of silvers.

    Sagola - 4600 same as DeVilbiss and SATA. 4500 same as LPH400LV.

    Well, that's the way Denny sees it.

  9. #99
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    Default Thanks Denny

    That's great info.

  10. #100
    PainterDave Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis N. Schmidt View Post
    So we have some truth, some bullshit and some lies. Time for a reality check.

    Transfer efficiency matters and it doesn't matter if you're putting all of the paint onto the panel or you're not. It's a way of comparing the efficiency of one gun to another and that's about it but that's a very important it. Over spray doesn't help anybody. If one gun can produce an equal finish to another and does so with less over spray it's the winner as you're going to use less paint.

    We constantly fight this never ending battle between quality of finish and wasting paint (a.k.a. polluting the air and clogging our booth filters.) The biggest game changer in the history of paint guns was the Iwata LPH400LV. With its introduction of pre-atomization technology using the split nozzle this gun could get a great finish using less air and produce less overspray at the same time. Here in the West it is still the overwhelming spray gun of choice particularly for basecoat with the orange aircap.

    I have 13 SATA spray guns so apparently I don't hate SATA but SATA has made several BAD spray guns.

    The Nr2000 both RP and HVLP were winners for their time.
    The 3000 was garbage and a clear step back from the Nr2000
    The 4000 was even worse garbage. SATA totally lost its way with this loser.
    The 5000 enabled SATA to get it's groove back and is a fine gun.
    The 5500X appears to be a really good gun as well and the I nozzle configuration finally gets it to mimic the Iwata spray pattern.

    Iwata

    LPH400LV in its three aircap forms silver, orange and purple.
    (Technological breakthrough and still a very fine gun - but a little slow for some people especially when doing complete cars)
    W400LV - Compliant version and a true killer. Had the speed the LPH lacked.
    Supernova - Best you can do. LS400 for base and WS400 for clear. Can't be beat.

    DeVilbiss

    PLUS Gun - capable of very good finishes but it does waste a lot of paint - would never use it for basecoat since you'll waste a lot but since clear is cheaper than basecoat, and it can lay down glass smooth clear at 40 PSIG it had its place in the world. Jon Kosmoski liked and used it so it can't be too bad. A bit dated now but for absolute performance, if you can live with the over spray, it's capable of a show car finish damn near off the gun.

    Tekna with the 7E7 aircap is a very good gun. Problem it shares with all DeVilbiss guns is the Teflon baffle seal. Iwata and Sagola can make guns without these seals why can't DeVilbiss. Even the new DV1 still uses this seal. That's ridiculous. SATA got rid of it with the 5500X.

    Pro-Lite - the TE20 seems to be the pick of the litter with respect to aircap selection. Very good gun and very popular, particularly in Europe, much more so than SATA which is far more popular in the USA than it is in Europe and particularly Germany.

    Sagola

    Great spray guns from a lousy company. This is at least the case in the United States which they treat like a red haired step child. Probably the number one gun in Europe. Guns are top notch. Service and marketing in the USA sucks. They have entered and left the American market at least three times that I personally know of and God only knows how long they will stay here this time. Damn shame, their products are great.

    Speed of Different Spray Guns

    With respect to the flow rate argument. There are only two ways to get more flow out of a spray gun. You can do it the SATA way which is to totally disregard the metric system and call something a 1.4mm tip when it in fact is a 1.6mm which you can easily tell with a simple set of numbered drills or you can do it the DeVilbiss way which is to make the internal venturi in the spray gun body which creates the vacuum that draws the fluid from the cup stronger.

    SATA and DeVilbiss - true hoses. Pros love them but might put out too much material for somebody that doesn't spray very often.

    Iwata - WS400 and W400LV just as fast as SATA and DeVilbiss but LPH400LV is considerably slower. For collision repair the LPH400LV might be the best choice as if offers the most control. With the orange cap it does great blends and with the weird purple cap it can match damn near anything including the worst of silvers.

    Sagola - 4600 same as DeVilbiss and SATA. 4500 same as LPH400LV.

    Well, that's the way Denny sees it.

    ANY gun can pretty much get 100% Transfer efficiency and ANY gun can get ZERO, its all dependent on the part being sprayed and the painters technique.

    if you spray... for example 20 tubes hanging your transfer efficiency will be low. if you paint a flat panel your TE will be higher. it means absolutely ZERO to the gun.


    i do however agree the SATA 3000 was junk

    happy painting fellas

  11. #101
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    Default

    a guns te rating doesn't change depending on what you're painting. it's simply a tool to give an idea of how well the gun puts paint to panel in a given set of circumstances.
    your actual paint usage will vary if you shoot it all in the air, but the te rating will remain the same. it's simply a rating, not actual life...
    b marler

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmarler View Post
    a guns te rating doesn't change depending on what you're painting. it's simply a tool to give an idea of how well the gun puts paint to panel in a given set of circumstances.
    your actual paint usage will vary if you shoot it all in the air, but the te rating will remain the same. it's simply a rating, not actual life...
    That's exactly right and that's a rating that the government uses to regulate guns used in certain areas of the country where pollution is more controlled.

  13. #103
    PainterDave Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmarler View Post
    a guns te rating doesn't change depending on what you're painting. it's simply a tool to give an idea of how well the gun puts paint to panel in a given set of circumstances.
    your actual paint usage will vary if you shoot it all in the air, but the te rating will remain the same. it's simply a rating, not actual life...
    Sorry sir, but that is incorrect.

    TE very well does depend on what you paint.

    if you paint a sheet of expanded metal "pictured here"
    highway-expanded-metal-security-fence.jpg

    VS

    a flat solid panel your TE rate is different. even with the same gun, the same air, and same distance.


    your transfer rate changes due to most of your paint passing through the holes and never hitting the panel.

    vs a flat panel most of your paint going on the panel.


    a HVLP gun can have ZERO or 100% TE. the TE test ONLY states that it is capable of achieving the requirements. it never states the ACTUAL numbers it achieved in the lab

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by PainterDave View Post
    Sorry sir, but that is incorrect.

    TE very well does depend on what you paint.

    if you paint a sheet of expanded metal "pictured here"
    highway-expanded-metal-security-fence.jpg

    VS

    a flat solid panel your TE rate is different. even with the same gun, the same air, and same distance.


    your transfer rate changes due to most of your paint passing through the holes and never hitting the panel.

    vs a flat panel most of your paint going on the panel.


    a HVLP gun can have ZERO or 100% TE. the TE test ONLY states that it is capable of achieving the requirements. it never states the ACTUAL numbers it achieved in the lab
    In the reality of paint application you're right but in spray gun engineering you're wrong. Transfer efficiency is established in the lab not in the shop and tells us the amount of paint that the gun's engineering allows to be applied to the surface being sprayed. If you hold the gun out and spray paint into the air or spray a solid panel the transfer efficiency of the gun doesn't change only the amount of paint hitting the surface changes. The EPA tells us that in order to be HVLP or "compliant" a spray gun needs to have a certain transfer efficiency no matter what you're painting.

  15. #105
    PainterDave Guest

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    Unbelievable.... nothing more to say. not going to beat my head into a wall over your lack of understanding

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