sw waterborn... caution!

[finishing t]

We just sent our waterborn system back to Sherwin Williams. I know shops are usuing it successfully(?) in regulated areas. We had continual adhesion problems on urethane bumpers. The rep let it slip today that other shops are also having that problem. We were never able to match the production we were getting with solvent basecoat. And the work had to be polished everytime due to sort of a grainy appearance. My painter was at a week long training for the system so it's being put on and used according to the companies procedures. We aren't going to be regulated here for years, so we're going back to solvent basecoat, DuPont. I don't think the SW system is very user friendly at his point, but according to their rep it's way easier than DuPonts' waterborn. Just wanted to see if anyone else was having the same problem.

[MARTINSR]

I hate to say it, but I could have written hose exact same problems here! Your discription is EXACTLY what we are seeing.

We are lost as to it being a "waterborne" issue, or a "Sherwin Williams waterborne" issue.

Brian

[ryan9]

Used Cromax Pro here for almost a year with no problems. About 12-18 cars painted a week with it. It can't get much easier than Duponts. 1.5 coats and your done.

I know Jayson M is using Sikkens Autowave with very good luck. It isn't a water thing it's a Sherwin thing. I have had quite a few people comment to me that SW is having a ton of issues with theirs.

They have the only new waterborne system. Sikkens is in it's third generation. BASF has had theirs since the early 90's. Cromax has been in Europe since the 90's. Cromax Pro is designed off of Cromax and Permahyd/ Standohyd. Which are both old.

[MARTINSR]

Yeah, the clear comes right off like it is a plastic sheet laying on top of the base. We had one today where the car was getting the factory black out tape and during installation of the tape IT pulled the clear clean off!

You never had anything like that with the Dupont?

Brian

[88GT]

I dont think I will ever be regulated other than the total discontinuation of solvent based paint, thank God

[Jayson M]

The sw shops in my area are having de-lamination problems big time in my area,a few shops have thrown it out.We have been using sikkens autowave for 6 months with no problems.Sikkens is the only company I know that developed a clear specifically for use over waterborne.Sorry martinsr,it is just a sw thing,one shop I talked to changed back to solvent sw,until their contract is up then it is out the door.Autowave has been in use in Europe since early 90's, not new by any means.I was skeptical at first as well 88gt but waterborne is a great product,you have to have an open mind,if you try it you would like it.

[Len]

The sw shops in my area are having de-lamination problems big time in my area,a few shops have thrown it out.We have been using sikkens autowave for 6 months with no problems.Sikkens is the only company I know that developed a clear specifically for use over waterborne.Sorry martinsr,it is just a sw thing,one shop I talked to changed back to solvent sw,until their contract is up then it is out the door.Autowave has been in use in Europe since early 90's, not new by any means.I was skeptical at first as well 88gt but waterborne is a great product,you have to have an open mind,if you try it you would like it.

I'm pretty tight with a Sikkens distributor as well as a Glasurit jobber and I haven't heard of either of them are having problems with waterborne.

[ryan9]

I have put Dupont clear and Spies Hecker clear on Cromax with no problems at all. I actually have Cromax Pro on my car with Sikkens Superior 250 clear. I don't have the first rock chip and it has been on there for about a year now.

If I was having a delam issue I would definately go with another brand. After using solvent then making the switch to water, I would not want to go back to spraying solvent. The pluses of water far outweigh any negatives.

[finishing t]

We had excellent matches with the system. Blending also seemed really good. We had been using it on insurance jobs and newer vehicles for almost a year. Just got a 3 stage Avalon back in today that we repaired last fall.The repairs and paint all are holding up well. That job also had a bumper painted but it was a repair on a factory bumper. We were breaking all the rules by using Medallion Euro Clear over it most of the time. No delam problems. The biggest issue was new bumpers and the grainy exture that required buffing on every job. I wanted to mix the Avalon paint on the system before it went back but I didn't get it done in time. I think with a good water based primer sealer we might have been able to beat the adhesion problem on new urethane. But the flat rate time on bumpers really doesn't allow for alot of extra steps. I guess on the other hand stripping and refinishing a peeler isn't really incuded in flat rate either.

[ryan9]

Are you adhesion promoting and sealing your bumper covers that are raw? Are you having a clear failure with waterborne or is the sealer or base coming off?

If you are only having the problem with urethane bumpers only it may not be a basecoat issue. Are the peeling bumpers raw?

[finishing t]

The problem with every peeling bumper seems to be the raw urethane ones. And most of those are a/m made by our friends in the far east. All the steps were followed including, sweating out the mold release, alcohol based prep, scuff , adhesion promoter,sealer,base and clear. Those same steps on raw bumpers with solvent basecoat will work, but with waterborne, not always.Even setting aside the bumper problem we were stuck with the performance issues, slow dry of base and gritty grainy clearcoat requiring compounding on every job. The jobs that we've used it on over the past year have held up and made the customers happy. The bumper problem and extra time and labor required are the deal breakers for us.

[88GT]

I have put Dupont clear and Spies Hecker clear on Cromax with no problems at all. I actually have Cromax Pro on my car with Sikkens Superior 250 clear. I don't have the first rock chip and it has been on there for about a year now.

If I was having a delam issue I would definately go with another brand. After using solvent then making the switch to water, I would not want to go back to spraying solvent. The pluses of water far outweigh any negatives.

care to elaborate?
What is the big "green" advantave of using a waterborne product to replace a solvent based product with no iso's and spraying the same clear on it? :confused:

[finishing t]

Seems the 1 to 1 reduction of the basecoat with solvent is the big concern. The basecoat application adds to the voc "problem". Then the switch to high solids clears eliminates some of the issues with clears that get reduced and have to use three coats. Overall, alot of the problem is political more than scientific most of the time. Not meaning to change the nature of this portion of the forum, I'll stop.

[MARTINSR]

The problem with every peeling bumper seems to be the raw urethane ones. And most of those are a/m made by our friends in the far east. All the steps were followed including, sweating out the mold release, alcohol based prep, scuff , adhesion promoter,sealer,base and clear. Those same steps on raw bumpers with solvent basecoat will work, but with waterborne, not always.Even setting aside the bumper problem we were stuck with the performance issues, slow dry of base and gritty grainy clearcoat requiring compounding on every job. The jobs that we've used it on over the past year have held up and made the customers happy. The bumper problem and extra time and labor required are the deal breakers for us.

Our peeling bumpers had nothing to do with the maker of the bumper as we don't use any aftermarket ones. They are not raw either, the problem is clear coming off the base. And the last one we had wasn't even a bumper, it was the door window frame on an Altima.

The clear issue, we seemed to have solved that problem. The tech rep came and worked with our guys for about three days, all day long shooting our jobs. The clear looks 100% better. Still has a strange leather look up close but it is basically ok.

Brian

[easymoney]

even the auto makers cant make their clear and base coat last. at least here in the south a lot of cars in made in the 90s are peeling bad especially the lighter colors. i saw a white gm car pass by me the other day and it looked pitiful with thr paint and primer gone and rust practically all over the upper panels.