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Thread: ISO gases are the sweet smell when painting

  1. #106
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Montreal, Canada
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    1,707

    Default Why is people freaking out over this...

    I see that sweet smell weekly...and some production painters see it daily for years...My old body man had been shooting that stuff for years...he was still shooting it in his 70s...he had been doing it all his life...and not always with the right protection...I would sometimes throw him a mask in the paint booth when he was doing basecoat on a spot...ya know what I mean...

    Darn...sure you see some guys who became sensitized to it, and some of them bad...but unless you have this pre-disposition allergic reaction to it all will probably be fiine...

    I say this work is fun, and to appreciate it and do a good job one must be able to relax and enjoy...
    My 2 cents worth...
    Serge

  2. #107

    Default

    Serge - I kind of agree with you. There were guys in the UK on another forum telling me to build massive compressor generated air systems with rigid blue piping systems connected to an air fed mask with coalescing filters etc etc or just not risk spraying at all.

    Then I came across the Hobbyair systems and the possibility has opened up for me to relax and enjoy this art, develop the skill, but also enjoy the confidence of knowing I am safeguarding my health. Not being paranoid, but why take risks when the safeguards are affordable?

    I just gotta find a way to ship one of those droids over from the US to the UK!

  3. #108
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    UK
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    147

    Default

    oh yeah, and gonna use some waterborne clear coat too are you? Jeez, waterborne base has been in use by OEM's for years now.
    We heard the same old stories about 2k being banned and you know what, every shop still uses it. Heck cellulose was supposed to be banned outright last year but you can still go into any paint store and buy as much as you want.

  4. #109

    Default

    Perhaps someone further down the road can enlighten us, but I thought water-borne paints contained more and higher levels of VOCs than ordinary 2K? Some water-bornes have been pulled back off the shelves because of this. Definitely not safer just because they are water based. Another problem for the DIYer is the curing, which is by heat for water paints.

    About respirators I came across what is supposed to be an iso-safe respirator, details below:

    Isocyanate safe respirator, for use with 2k car paints. (ALP 9000E)
    This respirator conforms to A1, B1 and P2. EN 405:1992 standards .
    The certificate number is 980434 and was issued by SGS Yarsley (the testers)


    Reply sent by the testers:

    The certificate was issued 10 years ago but the certificate is still valid. The product does use replaceable filter pads for solid and liquid based aerosols. Any advice on the usage must be obtained from the manufacturer.

    The manufacturer is Gerson, I believe based in USA. Anyone have any further info on this?

  5. #110
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    UK
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    Default

    I'm using a Gerson I got from Nu-agane, touted as being 2k safe not sure how true that is though considering every other charcoal specifically says it isn't. Seems ok though, have sprayed iso's using it and i'm not dead yet.

  6. #111
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    Nov 2005
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    lower Michigan
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    8,395

    Default

    Clarkey, you posted " touted as being 2k safe not sure how true that is though considering every other charcoal specifically says it isn't." (end quote).


    That not true, dual charcoal painters masks do NOT say that they aren't safe for spraying iso paints. THEY ARE SAFE TO SPRAY ISO BASED PAINTS when they are properly used. But they recommend fresh air systems for spraying iso based paints because we live in a litigation happy society and the dual cannister painters masks are NOT IDIOT PROOF. So the main reason dual cannister painters masks are not recommended for spraying iso based paints is because the mask companies are covering their asses from law suits brought about by people who intentionally or unintentionally misuse those masks.

  7. #112

    Thumbs up

    Clarkey - this may be interest, from the manufacturer, Gerson:

    The respirator is approved by CE for A1B1 P2.
    For painting an A1 P2 is used.
    The approval for B1 is extra.

    You can use this painting.
    If you are using Isocyanates then you must have a change out schedule. The reason is because Isocyanates do not have an odor and the user would not know when the cartridge is used. Most paint shops wear the mask for 20 to 40 hours but it depends on the exposure and ventilation.
    You should also wear eye and skin protection.

  8. #113
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    Nov 2008
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    Default

    the cheap charcoal filters last one day 8 hours from the time they are opened, or one hour in iso environment before they give up and are saturated ($30 mask)- the better charcoal filters last about one week at best from the time they are opened ($80 mask). the only way to spray iso's safetly is with a supplied air, and preferably a good spray booth to control overspray. there are cases of iso sensitization even with a supplied air mask without a spray booth controlling overspray. I've already sensed iso fumes coming through a brand new charcoal mask while just mixing the paint, charcoal filters really aren't adequate for iso paints. changing those filters all the time would pay for a supplied air system in a short time. don't risk your health get supplied air, or better yet, use a non-iso paint like straight enamel, or water based paints like AutoAir Paints.

  9. #114
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    159

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cheesegrater
    the cheap charcoal filters last one day 8 hours from the time they are opened, or one hour in iso environment before they give up and are saturated ($30 mask)- the better charcoal filters last about one week at best from the time they are opened ($80 mask). the only way to spray iso's safetly is with a supplied air, and preferably a good spray booth to control overspray. there are cases of iso sensitization even with a supplied air mask without a spray booth controlling overspray. I've already sensed iso fumes coming through a brand new charcoal mask while just mixing the paint, charcoal filters really aren't adequate for iso paints. changing those filters all the time would pay for a supplied air system in a short time. don't risk your health get supplied air, or better yet, use a non-iso paint like straight enamel, or water based paints like AutoAir Paints.
    Dusty,
    How's your case against Len going? Have you gotten any more good form letters from government agencys? Quit wasting everyones time, No one here values your opinion or your existance.

  10. #115
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    Nov 2005
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    San Francisco bay area California
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kevininohio
    Quit wasting everyones time, No one here values your opinion or your existance.
    That is DAMN Harsh and totally out of line!

    The guy can't post here any longer, you got your wish, he is gone, lay off the guy would you!

    Brian

  11. #116
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    Nov 2005
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    28,167

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cheesegrater
    the cheap charcoal filters last one day 8 hours from the time they are opened, or one hour in iso environment before they give up and are saturated ($30 mask)- the better charcoal filters last about one week at best from the time they are opened ($80 mask). the only way to spray iso's safetly is with a supplied air, and preferably a good spray booth to control overspray. there are cases of iso sensitization even with a supplied air mask without a spray booth controlling overspray. I've already sensed iso fumes coming through a brand new charcoal mask while just mixing the paint, charcoal filters really aren't adequate for iso paints. changing those filters all the time would pay for a supplied air system in a short time. don't risk your health get supplied air, or better yet, use a non-iso paint like straight enamel, or water based paints like AutoAir Paints.
    Most base coats are either solvent based or waterborne and don't contain isos. AutoAir bases are iso free waterborne but, just like any other base coats, they need to be clear coated with clear that contains isos. I've heard mixed reviews of their products but it's usually about lack of coverage and it could be the user and not the products.

  12. #117
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    Nov 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Len
    Most base coats are either solvent based or waterborne and don't contain isos. AutoAir bases are iso free waterborne but, just like any other base coats, they need to be clear coated with clear that contains isos. I've heard mixed reviews of their products but it's usually about lack of coverage and it could be the user and not the products.
    ]


    Len, you're mistaken there. AutoAir paints are true WATER-BASED paints, just like latex- as compared to water borne paints you mentioned. There's a difference, see it here towards end of article. And they are coming out with their own water based clear soon. Urethane is as antiquated as the model T car, and just as old. You can stick your head in the sand and ignore this technology, but soon you will have no choice- the entire industry is going water based in the very near future. You won't even be able to buy urethane anymore- that's why they're having fire sales now on urethane, for $90/gallon on Ebay. They don't want to get stuck with it.

    http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/1...int/index.html

    The Future of Automotive Paint is Water?
    Water-based paints made by manufactures such as Auto Air Colors are very likely the future of automotive paint technology

    By Glen Wilkinson
    photographer: Glen Wilkinson

    Auto Air Colors had this display set up in Nashville, TN for Day 4 of the HOT ROD Power Tour 2005.
    On Day 4 of the HOT ROD Power Tour 2005 we ran across an interesting display tucked in a corner of the massive parking lot at the Gaylord Opryland Hotel in Nashville, TN. Auto Air Colors was putting on a painting exhibition that at first glance might look like just another guy with an air brush showing off his skills - but it was way more than that because the paint being used was water-based.

    Auto Air Colors are water-based base coat paints intended for complete paint jobs and for graphic applications over existing finishes. The paints are similar to conventional urethane paint in that they are made with the exact same pigments, but the main difference is the binder and carrying agent utilized.

    Artist Mickey Harris at work with Auto Air Colors water-based paints.
    "Auto Air Colors," explains Craig Kennedy, V.P. of Sales and Marketing for Auto Air Colors, "is an acrylic resin which utilizes water to carry it to the substrate as opposed to urethane which uses solvent as acarrying agent. The difference being as Auto Air Colors cure, water vapor is released without emitting any volatile organic compounds (V.O.C.) as do urethanes." So, in other words, their paint is essentially non-toxic while urethane paints are.

    The advantages to using Auto Air Colors are many. They are ready to use straight out of the bottle. Reducers, hardeners and other mixed products are not required. The paint may be simply put into the spray gun and applied. There are also no time windows to work under. Auto Air Colors bind through a mechanical process compared to urethane paint's chemical process. The result is a paint job free of time restrictions and limitations. Plus, the average car can be completely painted with two quarts compared to almost a gallon with urethane paints, which equals a cost savings.

    "Auto Air Colors are also non-reactive," continues Kennedy, "and will not release trapped solvent into top coat layers allowing for multiple coats to be applied quickly without fear of 'solvent-pop', a symptom which occurs with urethane paint jobs when time windows are not followed. Additionally, due to the lack of solvent-release, Auto Air Colors paint jobs are quicker than urethane paint jobs in a controlled environment such a heated spray booth."

    The use of a primer is not required for adhesion to the substrate. AutoAir Colors may be applied direct to metal, aluminum, fiberglass, urethane, plastic, and other common paint surfaces. A concept used by a few motorsport race teams for weight savings including Worsham Racing's CSK NHRA Nitro-Class Funny Car team. Being solvent-free, there is no pot-life to the paint. Paint left in the spray gun may be saved for a future paint job that is months if not years away without any loss of performance.

    There is a real good chance water-based paints are going to be the future of automotive painting as the technology, ease-of-use, and non-toxic, environmentally friendly qualities are just too beneficial to be ignored. Paint manufactures are currently devoting much of their R&D into water-based paints. Fortunately, as Kennedy explains, the performance of water-based paint is already equal to urethane.

    "As environmental concerns develop, water-borne (urethane paints derived of solvent which are reduced with water to lessen its V.O.C.) will giveway to water-based paints. The performance of the water-based paints is excellent and there is not a compromise in the finish. The future development of water-based will focus on the top clear-coat material and expended use of water-based in high-production environments."

    Auto Air Colors has more than 200 colors and effects, all of which are intermixable for endless color creations. Colors include pearls, pearl-flakes, metal-flake, metallic colors, chameleons, chameleon-pearl flakes, candy colors, iridescent colors and more. Sizes available are 4oz., 16oz. 32oz. and 1 Gallon.For more on Auto Air Colors check out their web site at www.autoaircolors.com

  13. #118
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    Nov 2005
    Posts
    28,167

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cheesegrater
    ]


    Len, you're mistaken there. AutoAir paints are true WATER-BASED paints, just like latex- as compared to water borne paints you mentioned. There's a difference, see it here towards end of article. And they are coming out with their own water based clear soon. Urethane is as antiquated as the model T car, and just as old. You can stick your head in the sand and ignore this technology, but soon you will have no choice- the entire industry is going water based in the very near future. You won't even be able to buy urethane anymore- that's why they're having fire sales now on urethane, for $90/gallon on Ebay. They don't want to get stuck with it.
    Dusty
    Have you EVER read anything about "water-based clear"? Why don't you copy and paste some facts about it, I'd be interested in your source of information.

  14. #119
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    Nov 2008
    Posts
    11

    Default

    re-read my previous post- question- why do you ask, since you labelled my avatar header to say "disregard all I post" ? suddenly you want info from me...interesting

    "The future development of water-based will focus on the top clear-coat material and expended use of water-based in high-production environments."

    water based clear is in the experimental stage, and it's going to become a reality in the very near future

    so who in their right mind would spray urethane BC/CC/SS, when they soon will be able to get water based clear- and not have to wear supplied air systems/suits anymore, and risk the iso hazard ?

    the supplied air masks and HVLP/compliant guns will be antiquated and useless soon- no one will need them, with water based paints- a simple charcoal mask will do- water based is like spraying latex house paint- totally harmless

    wake up, smell the coffee, Len you could not give me a gallon of urethane, supplied air mask and HVLP/compliant gun, for free- they are all a bad investment and outdated technology at this point- water based paint is the cutting edge now

    you know what you can do with that equipment now ?

    how do you like those apples ?

  15. #120
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    2,371

    Default Who the He_ _

    Is Auto Aire?If any advancement is going to be made in water base it will be done by one of the big paint Mnfg's Like Dupont Or PPG They have the resources to do it,Cheesegrater it seems to me like you are trying to negatively influence Lens business and that is against the law.Mike

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