ISO gases are the sweet smell when painting

[dusty-ole-spraygun]

my grandfather was mustard gassed in France during WWI, by the Germans- he was in the artillery. He said they had to piss in their handkerchiefs and ties it around their mouth/nose, because they had no gas masks. He survived.

poisonous iso cyanide gases have a sweet smell- the truth is, not everyone can smell them- which leads to the myth they are "odorless"

that sweet smell when painting ? that is an ISO-type gas, being released as the solvents and catalyst are reacting and evaporating

see it here

http://www.slate.com/id/2148198/?nav=fix

Does Poison Gas Smell Good?
The blister agents have a fine bouquet.
By Daniel Engber

A second death-penalty trial for Saddam Hussein began on Monday, this time for the 1988 massacre of thousands of Kurdish villagers. Survivors accuse Hussein's troops of using chemical weapons in the attacks. "There was greenish smoke," said a witness for the prosecution, "and minutes later, a smell like rotten apples or garlic." Another survivor described a chemical agent that smelled like perfume. Wait, can poison gas really smell that good?

In particular, mustard gas has a rather nice aroma. Gas victims from World War I recalled a sweet and spicy scent that brought to mind lilacs, garlic, horseradish, onions, or—you guessed it—mustard. In its yellow-brown liquid form, sulfur mustard doesn't smell like anything; the characteristic sweet aroma develops only as it evaporates.

Perhaps you'd like to wash down your poison gas with a draft of liquid explosives? Or maybe you'd prefer a nip of polluted floodwater? Careful, even odorless helium can kill you.In general, "blister agents" like mustard gas smell pretty good. Another blister agent developed around the time of the First World War, lewisite, smells intensely of geraniums. A blister agent called phosgene oxime has an unpleasant, irritating smell—but with hints of freshly mown hay. The related diphosgene smells like anise.

"Blood agents," which incapacitate or destroy your blood cells, come in a variety of flavors. The bitter-almond smell of the hydrogen cyanide in Zyklon B permeated the gas chambers at the Nazi death camps in the 1940s. (Not everyone notices the nutty aroma.) Hydrogen sulfide gives off a whiff of rotten eggs. Deadly arsine has the scent of garlic.

[dusty-ole-spraygun]

if you're watching the other thread on urethane, I had the first 2 symptoms listed below, while spraying urethane paint outside, with a half mask and new charcoal filters- I would walk inside only to mix more paint, with garage door open- today I have irritation of upper breathing tract, some mucous coughing up, and hoarse voice. Early in the AM while in bed, had some slight chest pain/heaviness in chest. I had a slight ache behind eyes/temples from day one, each time spraying this paint, that I never had with any other paint. The ache would go away later that day/next day. I've sprayed this paint outside now 3 times, with days off between. Not all cyanides and poisonous gases are odorless, there are variations that have sweet smells, etc.- per previous post. I've talked to other painters who concur with what I believe, the sweet smell with catalyzed paints, is the ISO's being released as the paint evaporates off the car. What is surprising is the level that is toxic- only 35 ppm affects a human being, at100 ppm you're unconscious- and without medical attention you will die with 100 ppm. 300 ppm, you're dead in minutes. PPM means parts per million, so we are talking very, very minute amounts needed to hurt or kill you.

this is not anything to be messing around with- no car or paint job is worth the risk- charcoal cartidges obviously don't work 100%, as I found out first hand yesterday. If I can feel those effects painting outside, imagine if I was in a garage with door closed, doing a "nice" paint job. I may not be here now.

this is an issue where I agree with board owner Len 100%- actually I'm going out of my way to support and soup up his statements about supplied air masks. This issue has been way understated in the painting industry ! If you're going to spray iso paints, buy a hobby air or better breathing apparatus. If not, then don't use catalyzed paints. It only takes one different paint with a different evaporation rate and slightly higher ISO output, to kill you- or perhaps a temperature inversion where air is not being moved away quickly- which is part of what happened yesterday to me. We had a humid overcast move in, and there was no wind. Some ISO paints seem to put out more iso's than other ISO paints- I've been around ISO paints since 1984 as an occasional user, and this is the first time I had effects like recently. I'm passing this info on so any other hobbyists don't get into trouble- and let there be no doubt, a brand new charcoal mask is NOT enough protection- yesterday for a few moments I actually felt like I may pass out while walking on my feet, the feeling that I was being overcome by the fumes-and I had my mask on.


"What does cyanide do in the body?
In case of cyanide poisoning, there is enough oxygen in the blood, but the body is unable to use it. The enzymes that should have delivered it to all kinds of energy processes in the body cells have ceased to work. It is like starving in a pile of food. As the cells are no longer supplied with oxygen, they die quickly. Symptoms of cyanide poisoning are: headache, dizziness, nausea, vomiting, painful spasms, fast breathing, anxiety, unconsciousness, coma and death. A concentration of 35 ppm leads to a slight irritation of the upper respiratory track and mucous membranes. A concentration of 100 ppm leads to unconsciousness and heavy spasms, and the victim's breath has a strong smell of bitter almonds. If victims do not receive immediate medical care, they will die within half an hour. A concentration of 300 ppm will kill a victim within minutes."

[dusty-ole-spraygun]

one antidote to keep around- glucose tablets- I did notice when I drank some coffee with milk, and ate a bowl of soup, I felt better initially- it would even be a good idea to take a few glucose tablets before spraying a car with urethanes


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanide..._and_antidotes

Acute poisoning
Inhalation of high concentrations of cyanide causes a coma with seizures, apnea and cardiac arrest, with death following in a matter of minutes. At lower doses, loss of consciousness may be preceded by general weakness, giddiness, headaches, vertigo, confusion, and perceived difficulty in breathing. At the first stages of unconsciousness, breathing is often sufficient or even rapid, although the state of the victim progresses towards a deep coma, sometimes accompanied by pulmonary edema, and finally cardiac arrest. Skin colour goes pink from high blood oxygen saturation.


[edit] Chronic exposure
Exposure to lower levels of cyanide over a long period (e.g., after use of cassava roots as a primary food source in tropical Africa) results in increased blood cyanide levels, which can result in weakness and a variety of symptoms, including permanent paralysis


It has also been anecdotally suggested that glucose is itself an effective counteragent to cyanide, reacting with it to form less toxic compounds that can be eliminated by the body. One theory on the apparent immunity of Grigory Rasputin to cyanide was that his killers put the poison in sweet pastries and madeira wine, both of which are rich in sugar; thus, Rasputin would have been administered the poison together with massive quantities of antidote. One study found a reduction in cyanide toxicity in mice when the cyanide was first mixed with glucose[3]. However, as yet glucose on its own is not an officially acknowledged antidote to cyanide poisoning.

[BradNes1]

Dusty Isocyanates have no smell, and isocyanides (which are completely different) have absolutely nothing to do with any of the painting the people on this board deal with.

[dusty-ole-spraygun]

no, it's not that they have no smell, it's just that some people can't smell them-

[e-tek]

Now we know "The Real Story" of Dusty and his SprayGun....:rolleyes:

This your brain...this is your brain after isocyanate exposure...this is Dusty's brain....can you dust it off...not likely.

First sign of brain damage - excessive copying and posting from the 'net!

[dusty-ole-spraygun]

this from the guy with a 1971 Datsun in his signature...
(laughter...)

my brother in law had one of those 240Z's one time

then he got a job, the paychecks started rolling in every week...

I think he junked it...

do any of those cars actually make any power ?

[fireboat]

I will agree with Dusty on one point, it is appropriate to remind new painters just getting into the hobby of iso's. Not to scare anyone away, but to inform them.

Jobbers certainly will not say anything to an obvious neophyte painter, they just want to make a sale. I'm not saying they should legally as we need to be repsonsible for our own actions. But, I think a lot of people don't know how serious the risk is.

Also, it seems like a lot of people get into this hobby on a budget but don't figure in the cost of a fresh air system. My feeling is if you can't afford the safety equipement, then don't paint until you can.


So some first hand reports like Dusty's may get the message across.

[dusty-ole-spraygun]

the "urban legend" that "all" iso's have no smell is false- the type of iso in the paint I just sprayed this week, has a known smell- see below

this type is called "HDI" or diisocyanate hexane, also carries the numerical name "1.6"- among other names it has. Take my advice, if the hardener in your paint lists this ingredient, don't spray it with a charcoal mask, even if the filters are new. Use a supplied air mask. Some hardeners are worse than others, this one is particularly nasty- it emits gases long after being sprayed on the car- this is the one that when I pulled the car back in the garage after painting it outside, just the car sitting in the garage drying made me dizzy, and I had my mask on with new filters- and also just being downwind from painted parts while cleaning my gun outside, made it hard to breathe and I was gagging- I'm posting this info here because the other thread won't accept replies

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/phs120.html

1.1 What is HDI?
HDI is the common name for hexamethylene diisocyanate. It is also known as 1,6-hexamethylene diisocyanate, 1,6-diisocyanatohexane, Mondur HX, and Desmodur H. It is a pale yellow liquid with a strong odor. HDI is found in hardening agents for automobile paints.

[dusty-ole-spraygun]

I'm also posting this here, because other thread won't accept replies- it has come to my attention that 3M is telling painters their charcoal mask with 6001 filters and prefilters will work against iso paints- I found out first hand it won't- 3 days now I'm feeling effects of iso paints from Monday to now

going online to a 3M respirator chart from a vendor specifically shows that the 6001 cartridge is no good for iso paints- yet the 3M reps tell me it is- using the reps advice I tried it and regretted it

LEN is 100% correct in all respects- with urethane/iso catalyst paints, the only safe way, is supplied air mask don't even try the charcoal cartridge, if you fellas reading this knew how lousy I have felt the past 3 days, you'd never try to paint urethane with a charcoal mask- the effects are long lasting and only go away gradually- as of right now, my hands/forearms are still slightly numb/tingling, my throat is hoarse, and my vision is still not 100% right, and I feel rundown and tired- eating/drinking anything with sugar helps- talking to another painter who went to doctor twice for this, he said what the iso's do long term is create a hypoglycemic condition in your blood, by robbing the sugar and lowering your blood sugar level- I have short term effects of raw throat, chest tightness

3M just sent me an email saying the half mask w/charcoal cartridges will work ok for iso paints- how's this for contradicting information

see email below from 3M- now who's telling the truth here ? from my experience, I know what happened to me- the charcoal mask is not enough protection- so I asked this guy at 3M, did he personally use this half mask to spray ISO paints in a booth ? didn't get an answer to that one yet- but I have told this rep that what he is doing, is borderline criminal negligence, and may end up hurting someone badly some day- notice how 3M rep says no specific time limit on filters- when the paint MSDS sheet says 1 hour

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: Re: respirator/cartridges for spraying urethane paints w/isocyanate hardeners

> Sorry to hear of your experience. The respirator assembly that you
> purchased from Lowes (3M R6211/R6311?) is commonly used for paint spray
> applications, including urethanes containing isocyanate compounds. Both
> vapors and mists from the coating should be filtered within the performance
> specifications and use limitations of the respirator assembly, which
> include the 6000 Half Facepiece, 6001 Organic Vapor Cartridge, 5P71 P95
> Prefilter and 501 Retainer. The 3M 6000 Series Half Facepiece Respirator
> offers protection up to 10X the occupational exposure limit (OSHA PEL). The
> cartridge and filter service life depends on your use conditions. including
> the air concentrations for the components in the paint. There are no
> specific time use limitations for use of the cartridge and filter.

[MARTINSR]

[Len]

[showcar]

I remember posting about this with my old account and I feel the same as the original poster. Supplied air all the way.

Alot of the painters I've worked with use charcoals, and they don't swap them out as often as they should. A couple of them have twitches.


Damn, I'm gonna order some filters for my north half mask tonight!!!

I'm hoping mx 243 doesn't have isos, but I don't think so. I didn't see anything in the msd.

great post btw.

[All Dry]

Lets see...3M Spends billions of dollars on product development including elaborate safety protocols and volumes of scientific data produced by P.H.D researchers from the best schools in the U.S and we are not supposed to believe them?Those types of masks are not only lab tested but they also have been tested in real life use for years.Due to the signifigant liability exposure to 3M and their attractive deep pockets from a lawyers perspective I dont think they are making faulty products. Mike

[Phil V]

BULLSHIT Dusty! I've been on this site for 10 years and at least once a year we get into this same discussion about Iso's and charcoal masks. Dusty ---- you are NOT re-inventing the wheel here. This discussion has been beat to death from every angle and the bottom line that we all agree on is that charcoal painters masks ARE safe to spray iso based if the masks are use properly. Everyone (me included) recommends a fresh air breathing system for spraying ANY kind of paint but dual charcoal filter painters masks ARE safe to use when used properly. Just to dispel more myths that you are concocting - the iso based hardener in Imron is the basically the SAME chemical hardener used with all other urethane based paints, imron just used a little more hardener than the current urethanes we use.

Lets be honest here - you getting sick for three days after shooting some paint OUTSIDE with a supposedly fresh cannister painters mask is just plain ridiculous. NO ONE gets sick under those circumstances, NOT EVEN YOU. You probably had a touch of the flu or you were psychosomatically making up the symtoms of you "illness" as you went along. I've sprayed paint for close to 40 years with dual charcoal painters masks and I have been around literally hundreds of other professional bodymen/painters who have used the same masks. the ONLY people who had problems with iso based paints are those guys that INTENTIONALLY allowed themselves to come in direct contact with iso based paints with NO LUNG PROTECTION AT ALL. The made dumb ass decisions and they suffered the consequences. Dual cannister painters masks ARE SAFE to use when spraying iso based paints when the masks are used properly.