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  1. #1
    dusty-ole-spraygun Guest

    Default Zero Rust is nothing more than a Rustoleum-type paint

    I've been doing research on the POR-type products, and one way to really get to the heart of the matter, is look at the MSDS sheets for each one.

    One will find that products like POR-15, Rust Bullet, Chassis Saver, Master Series, etc. are all basically the same formulation with minor changes- the main reason that Rust Bullet has a better rep lately is, they only offer it in silver- with a high aluminum content. Any aluminum paint is by definition a powerful paint-over-rust paint, ask any midwest farmer who repaints his fencerow posts. If they are metal, simply painting them with aluminum paint stops any further rust- because the aluminum shavings in the paint, seal off the parent metal- and aluminum is a powerful anti-oxidant, it doesn't rust.

    Reading around the automotive forums, the general consensus is, the best moisture curing urethanes from each make, are the silver colors- intuition tells me, it's the aluminum in the silver paint that makes it better. It very well can't oxidize or chalk, if aluminum is the pigment to begin with. The urethane feature merely gives it the hardness.

    This led me to Zero Rust, which is a different product, their website says it's a "phenolic modified alkyd coating". Everyone is raving about how much easier it is to spray and use.

    Well a lightbulb went off, because I studied different types of paint formulations before- "alkyd" is synonymous with "synthetic enamel"- a very old paint formulation, one of the first. It's been around since the 1930's.

    Zero Rust is basically a paint like XO Rust or Rustoleum, nothing more. Rustoleum is a "phenolic modified alkyd" too. There's a reason why Zero Rust sprays on so easy, but will chalk up and has no UV protection.

    I downloaded the MSDS for Zero Rust, from their website. I compared it to MSDS for Rustoleum.

    It's the same stuff.

    Zero Rust is nothing more than a Rustoleum type paint. Yes, it is quite good if used intelligently, just like Rustoleum was/is. I blasted the entire underside and frame of my GTO nearly 25 years ago, and painted it with Rustoleum- it's still the same as I painted it, today- because the car was rarely driven, and now garaged, and the UV could not get at the underside. I painted the entire BODY of that car as well- the sun chalked it up, then it began to rust- broken down from UV and rain, from sitting outside. Since then I blasted it clean again, and self etched it, and garaged for the time being.

    Back to back tests with Rust Bullet against another "phenolic modified alkyd coating" showed the alkyd was actually inferior. The 2000 hour salt test result for Zero Rust can be deceiving- real sea water and water with table salt added, are 2 different things.

    2000 hours on salt tests may seem like a lot for Zero Rust, but Master Series has survived the salt water test in excess of 5000 hours. But Master Series is the same darn thing as Rust Bullet anyway. One thing is certain, POR-15 seems to be somewhat inferior to the newer Moisture Cured Urethanes.

    My gut feeling is, the industry as a whole has gotten carried away a bit with the POR type coatings- there was money to be made on car restorations, where people were lazy or not well equipped or on tight budgets, and could not afford to dip/sandblast. So it went full circle that now ease of use has displaced the hardness and finicky nature of the POR type urethane coatings, so now we're back to square one using a Rustoleum type product again- but just calling it a different name- Zero Rust.

    The maker of Rust Bullet attested to this, saying there are now 319 different types of POR type products, but they all use the same 6 ingredients. When one is tested and shown to be inferior, before the results can come out, the inferior product is repackaged, put back on the market with a new name, and resurfaces.

    My friends, Zero Rust is nothing more than Rustoleum. It's an oil based modified alkyd enamel, using butyl acetate, naptha, methyl propyl ketone, xylene, with additional dispersants and driers.

    Just like urethanes, how new it's not.

    I also have a gut feeling, that merely mixing up a batch of black Imron with hardener, and painting it on rust in thick coats, would work nearly as well as any POR type coating. It's the same stuff basically. Any urethane is attracted by moisture, and adheres/hardens to it- which is why it attacks the painter's eyes and lung linings so viciously, if given a chance.

    If you do a search for "phenolic modified alkyd coating" on Yahoo, you'll find that a bunch of paint mfrs. make such a paint, and it's basically a marine paint. Nothing new.

  2. #2
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    When you say that you compared the MSDS of rustoleum to that of zero-rust,, which rustoleum paint were you speaking of. I couldn't find any phenolic modified alkyd enamels on the rustoleum website.
    Waterford, Mi.

  3. #3
    dusty-ole-spraygun Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger J.
    When you say that you compared the MSDS of rustoleum to that of zero-rust,, which rustoleum paint were you speaking of. I couldn't find any phenolic modified alkyd enamels on the rustoleum website.

    ok here it is, Rustoleum High Performance- says right in description, phenolic modified alkyd

    http://www.rustoleumibg.com/product....&snv=1&pid=110


    here's what comes up in Yahoo search for "phenolic modified alkyd enamel"- the list is quite long, there's a ton of specialty companies making it, it's been around a long, long time

    http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=phe...p=mss&ei=UTF-8

    Zero Rust is merely selling an improved Rustoleum type product for 3x the cost- you can get a quart of XO Rust from the hardware store satin black, for $9- and a gallon for $29- same stuff- you can also put an "accelerator" for Rustoleum now, that is actually an iso hardener, and paint it on with a brush

    it's no big deal really- you can get Valspar tractor/farm implement enamel, it's also an alkyd- flatten it, and spray/brush it on

    the reason the paint grips and lives, is people are treating the area first with Picklex or some other phosphoric acid- this has been the same old procedure now for decades

    just catchy new names, that promote sales

    now, why are these prices all over the board ? Why the same formulation as Rustoleum or any other enamel ? The rust buster paints are really starting to look like a big farce to me.
    Last edited by dusty-ole-spraygun; 10-25-2008 at 11:23 PM.

  4. #4
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    After using POR15 for 20 years we came to know the product quite well. It does cling onto rusted surfaces very well and it hardens to a shell-like coating. The problem is that it can chip and moisture gets between the POR and the surface causing problems. Rust Bullet is very similar and neither is anything like Rustoleum and in many ways Rustoleum is better.

    I've only used Rustoleum a couple times so I can't comment on how it compares to Zero Rust but I can tell you that the Zero Rust works very well, looks good and doesn't cost a lot. I use ZR in almost all of the 10 colors for cars, farm equipment, bird baths, boat parts etc, etc. It holds up great and when it gets damaged it's easy to repair.

  5. #5
    dusty-ole-spraygun Guest

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    [QUOTE=Len] Rust Bullet is very similar and neither is anything like Rustoleum and in many ways Rustoleum is better.




    Perhaps you misunderstood my post, it is a confusing issue- Rustoleum threatened to sue Rust Bullet for other reasons, mainly the name/trademark, not the actual formulation- I realize the paint formulations are totally different, a urethane vs. an enamel- but Rust Bullet did extensive tests and Rustoleum did very poorly in them- see it here- and Rustoleum didn't like it too much

    the owner of Rust Bullet posted this in a forum a while back

    http://www.binderbulletin.org/forums...ad.php?t=17290

    quote:

    "Rust Bullet hasn't been available on the market until June 8th, 2003 . And then was only used and tested in large industry for testing such as Goodyear, Navel research ships, the Point Loma Water Treatment Plant, as well as others.

    In late November of 2003 I started giving out samples at Auto swap meets to get an idea of how it did in real world use of cars and trucks. As a prior POR-15 dealer ourselves, we switched to Rust Bullet , I am very familiar with the properties of POR-15 products.

    In the last 5 months we have had nothing but good reviews of Rust Bullet. We use the product ourselves doing restorations of First Gen. Camaros and know all the problems associated with this type of application. As you may
    know it takes at least 6 months to a year to know if a product such as this really works. So long time real life results are not available yet.

    Due to the lack of real life results tests, we subjected Rust Bullet to National Testing Standards, Inc. for accelerated weather tests, the same testing company used by the Navy and most other companies for testing against others in the field. These were blind test and the results are posted for everyone to view on our website. Rust Bullet passed all of the test. Just as a note, POR-15 came in #3, Wasser came in #2. These results are also online.

    After the N.T.S.I. we subjected the panels to yet two more testing facilities, just to make sure. Atlas Weathering Services Group and Q-Labs Weathering Research Center. The same results were seen.

    To back it up, we've offered an open challenge, and still do, to *any* product in the field to take the tests at their choice of labs. To date, only POR-15 took the challenge a few months ago, then followed up with a cease and desist order from their lawyer for us to remove all of the testing results from our websites showing POR-15 results. Sorry not gonna happen. Rust-Oleum has also threatened legal actions on one of our domains for Cyber squatting, this is a lost cause too as they do not own the domain name in question or the trademark they say we used. Seems the only way they will challenge us in with legal remedies. We have yet to hear a reply to our reply.

    As for advantages over POR-15, I'll name a few.. since you asked.

    No need to Prep ( Metal-Ready )
    Not UV Sensitive
    Doesn't have to be thinned to be sprayed
    The base gray/silver color is an excellent base color for any color of topcoat if you wish to do so. Light colors get no bleed through.
    Shows to have a high resistance to abrasion.
    POR-15's answer to solve the problem with other paints not adhereing to POR-15 was to bring out TIE-COAT primer. This is not needed with Rust Bullet.
    You can topcoat with any type of paint with no problem.
    Higher Impact Resistance
    Higher resistance to salt and sea water."

  6. #6
    dusty-ole-spraygun Guest

    Default

    they also did an extensive battery of tests on test panels, and posted it on their site- seems like they are pretty confident their urethane rust buster is the best of the bunch- they offer a 10 year guarantee, and Rust Bullet challenge- they will take on any other coating in any lab tests- winner of tests gets to publish results, loser of test has to pay for the tests- so far only POR-15 and Rustoleum has tried, both of them lost



    the battery of tests is astronomical

    http://www.rustbullet.com/IndTesting...imeTesting.htm

    http://www.rustbullet.com/index.htm

    http://www.rustbullet.com/Comparison/ProdComp.htm

  7. #7
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    Dusty, if you think that your experience with POR will be better or different than mine then you should use it. I've found that POR and Rust Bullet to be very similar products but I don't have as much experience with RB as I do with POR. I've found that ZR is easier, cheaper and better and you may have a different opinion but you should reserve those opinions until you have more experience.

  8. #8
    dusty-ole-spraygun Guest

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    ok, if you pull the MSDS for Speedy Dry Rustoleum High Performance Primer 1500 series, no. 1573- and compare it to Zero Rust MSDS

    you'll see both have Xylene and Butyl Acetate, and other similar ingredients

    it's the same stuff- both are modified alkyds that dry quickly and come in spray cans, and are rust inhibitors

    not a big deal, because there's at least 10 other paints from other mfrgs. with the same formulation, and that's just getting into the search engine a few pages

    we are talking a very, very common paint here. No doubt Zero Rust works well, but I'd wager the Rustoleum High Performance would be just as good- what makes it "stick" is the acid treatment

    price speaks much about it as well, you can get a gallon of Zero Rust for only $36 from the Home 101 Show with David Billings- for that cheap, it's obvious we are talking a basic alkyd (synthetic) enamel, modified for fast drying capabilities and adhesion traits over rust

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by dusty-ole-spraygun
    ok, if you pull the MSDS for Speedy Dry Rustoleum High Performance Primer 1500 series, no. 1573- and compare it to Zero Rust MSDS

    you'll see both have Xylene and Butyl Acetate, and other similar ingredients

    it's the same stuff- both are modified alkyds that dry quickly and come in spray cans, and are rust inhibitors

    not a big deal, because there's at least 10 other paints from other mfrgs. with the same formulation, and that's just getting into the search engine a few pages

    we are talking a very, very common paint here. No doubt Zero Rust works well, but I'd wager the Rustoleum High Performance would be just as good- what makes it "stick" is the acid treatment

    price speaks much about it as well, you can get a gallon of Zero Rust for only $36 from the Home 101 Show with David Billings- for that cheap, it's obvious we are talking a basic alkyd (synthetic) enamel, modified for fast drying capabilities and adhesion traits over rust
    Dusty, if old spray guns and Rustoleum turn you on then you should start (or continue) to use them. I've been down the POR15 road many times and find that Zero Rust works much better. I haven't tried Rustoleum more than a couple times so I can't say how it compares to ZR but I now have about 10 years of experience with ZR and I love the stuff.

    You should go purchase Rustoleum and use it for 10 years and come back and tell us how it worked for you.

  10. #10
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    Default dear mr len,

    Quote Originally Posted by Len
    Dusty, if old spray guns and Rustoleum turn you on then you should start (or continue) to use them. I've been down the POR15 road many times and find that Zero Rust works much better. I haven't tried Rustoleum more than a couple times so I can't say how it compares to ZR but I now have about 10 years of experience with ZR and I love the stuff.

    You should go purchase Rustoleum and use it for 10 years and come back and tell us how it worked for you.
    oh never mind...
    "Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." Alfred E. Newman

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by dusty-ole-spraygun
    ok, if you pull the MSDS for Speedy Dry Rustoleum High Performance Primer 1500 series, no. 1573- and compare it to Zero Rust MSDS

    you'll see both have Xylene and Butyl Acetate, and other similar ingredients

    it's the same stuff- both are modified alkyds that dry quickly and come in spray cans, and are rust inhibitors

    not a big deal, because there's at least 10 other paints from other mfrgs. with the same formulation, and that's just getting into the search engine a few pages

    we are talking a very, very common paint here. No doubt Zero Rust works well, but I'd wager the Rustoleum High Performance would be just as good- what makes it "stick" is the acid treatment

    price speaks much about it as well, you can get a gallon of Zero Rust for only $36 from the Home 101 Show with David Billings- for that cheap, it's obvious we are talking a basic alkyd (synthetic) enamel, modified for fast drying capabilities and adhesion traits over rust
    IMO, the xylene in both products doesn't make them similar-it is a common solvent in a number of products and doesn't remain in the "cured" finish. Not sure about Butyl Acetate-that sound like something that remains in the solids. I am as cheap as anyone (well, maybe not you, but close ), and I used Rustoleum from hardware store to paint a frame a few years back. It has been outside, (poorly) covered for at least 3 winters, and a number of spots have peeled and rusted under. Pretty disappointing. My prep was mostly wire wheel on a 4" grinder, scotchbrite and lacquer thinner (I've learned a few things since then), and was not perfect, but certainly got the loose rust and grease off. I have since used ZR, and hope it holds up better. Based on the favorable comments on this site, I expect it to. The finish is nothing like the glossy Rustoleum, and it smells way different too (but that could be solvents). The ingredients may be the same or similar, but it sure behaves, looks and smells different. I hope it holds up better. If I recall, MSDS describe the ingredients, but not the ratios, is that correct? Maybe the blend is different?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by alaskajeff
    IMO, the xylene in both products doesn't make them similar-it is a common solvent in a number of products and doesn't remain in the "cured" finish. Not sure about Butyl Acetate-that sound like something that remains in the solids. I am as cheap as anyone (well, maybe not you, but close ), and I used Rustoleum from hardware store to paint a frame a few years back. It has been outside, (poorly) covered for at least 3 winters, and a number of spots have peeled and rusted under. Pretty disappointing. My prep was mostly wire wheel on a 4" grinder, scotchbrite and lacquer thinner (I've learned a few things since then), and was not perfect, but certainly got the loose rust and grease off. I have since used ZR, and hope it holds up better. Based on the favorable comments on this site, I expect it to. The finish is nothing like the glossy Rustoleum, and it smells way different too (but that could be solvents). The ingredients may be the same or similar, but it sure behaves, looks and smells different. I hope it holds up better. If I recall, MSDS describe the ingredients, but not the ratios, is that correct? Maybe the blend is different?
    When you apply any product that needs to DRY, like Zero Rust, you want to apply the first coat wet but not thick then allow it to flash for as long as necessary to allow the solvent to escape before apply a second coat.

    These types of products usually need a minimum of two coats to have enough "film build" to protect the surface well. I usually apply my second coat in a different color than the first so that I can see that I get good coverage. Under a car I may spray it with gray first then with black. If you apply the coats too thick without allowing the solvet to escape the ZR will stay soft for a long time so let it breath before you recoat.

  13. #13
    dusty-ole-spraygun Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by alaskajeff
    IMO, the xylene in both products doesn't make them similar-?


    you're parcing words now, and using semantics

    both Rustoleum High Perf and ZR are "phenolic modified alkyd enamels"

    explaint that one- it's the same stuff

    phenols are as old as dirt, they were invented in 1924, and used to make bakelite insulators and bakelite radio shells

    see it here

    http://www.eng.buffalo.edu/Courses/c...gs/tsld004.htm

  14. #14
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    Very well done and informative. I have not the depth of experience with the manufacturing of Paints nor the Chemistry involved.

    I have however used 3 of the products mentioned (Master Series, Por-15, and Zero Rust) and have a opinion on your excellent analysis.

    Master Series seems to work best over non-rusted surfaces POR-15 is marketed more for applying directly to stable rust.

    The premise they all use is that if you "seal" the metal surface from air rust (iron oxide) cannot form or continue to form. The idea being that traditional Primers and Paints do not do this to the same degree these products will. Which is plausible in that all Cars on the road today have a "E-Coat" applied to metal prior to Primer.

    I would think however that these products mentioned could not be just repackaged "Rustoleum" if for no other reason than patent infringements.

    But do they all do the same thing? Yes I would have to agree.

    Greg
    Thoughts and comments expressed by me are mine based on my own experience and research and shared here freely. I am not a professional nor make any claim to be as such

  15. #15
    dusty-ole-spraygun Guest

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    believe it or not, Rustoleum did threaten to file an infringement suit against Rust Bullet. Also POR-15 actually DID file a lawsuit against Rust Bullet. Both POR and Rustoleum are demanding that Rust Bullet remove the results of testing from the Rust Bullet site, because it shows their products inferior to Rust Bullet.

    Rust Bullet is smart, only making an aluminum silver rust busting paint, which by nature with the extra alum in it for silver pigment color, will work better as a rust inhibitor ! Of course they make a black topcoat, which most likely, is just a basic enamel or urethane.

    If you took 90 weight gear oil and poured 10 pounds of aluminum powder into it, it would turn silver- if you then painted it on your car frame- it would stop rust quite well.

    Rustoleum can't sue anyone for making an alkyd based enamel- it's a common item now, and that would be like trying to sue someone for making a toaster or car- the patent on the original invention is only good for something like 13 years, after which is can be copied by anyone. That is because of anti-trust laws and to prevent a monopoly, and promote healthy competition with pricing. Patents do expire, and when they expire, other companies come out with their own improved versions and take market share away.

    The only thing you can't use, is the exact same NAME, you can't call your product "Rustoleum". Rustoleum actually threatened to sue Rust Bullet, because of the name 'Rust Bullet"- it also says "Rust"- of course "Rust" is a common noun and item found in nature, no one "owns" the name, that lawsuit is therefore frivolous and won't fly.

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