Choosing the right clear?

[fastback]

I'm painting my 65 mustang at home. The prep work is nearly done and I'm getting close to paint. I stopped by the local paint shop and decided on PPG DBU for the basecoat. I'm now trying to decide on the right clear coat. The car will be white with blue stripes and will likely stay in the garage 80% of the time. The guy at the paint store recommended Deltron DC4010 and another PPG high-end clear (don’t remember specifics). I'd read from others on this site about good results from Shopline, Nason and Omni. I asked the guy/s at the paint shop about the difference between the brands but nobody could give me a good answer as to why the significant price difference. I'm not necessarily trying to cut corners... I just want to understand the value in one over the other before I buy.

I would appreciate any help or recommendation based on your experience and/or knowledge to the different clears. Also, I know the gun configuration can impact how the different clears lay down. I'll be spraying the clear with an Iwata LPH400LV / 1.3 tip.

Thanks in advance

[Phil V]

Shopline and Omni are one and the same product, just a name change. Which would work fine on your Mustang. I use Shopline/Omni and Transtar 4.2 low VOC clears on my own cars as well as customer cars and have for the last 10 years with absolutely no short term or long term problems. I personally think high end clears are a waste of money. Some times "you get what you pay for " with different products, that has NOT been my experience with many different brands of clears. Its a wives tale or a load of crap that lesser expensive clears has less or no built in UV protection and that lesser priced clears will not hold up as well as high end clears. My personal long term experience is that lesser priced clears hold up just fine for many years in the hot sun of summer and the subzero temps of Michigan winters. If people want to spend at least two to three times as much on name brand high end clears then go for it. I personally think it would be a waste of money, but thats just my experience.

[88GT]

I disagree with Phil. I sprayed a 280Z and a 68 Mustang with transtar clear and they both died back. That was the last time I used a cheap clear. Clear is relatively low cost compared to some base coat colors. The difference in price doing a complete car using cheap clear and some better or good clear can be as little as $50. Thats peanuts compared to the overall cost of materials. MY (Me, 88GT, Darrens) experience has been, if you try to save on materials, it will end up costing more some how or some way.

[Phil V]

88GT, Like I said in my earlier post - I have been using Omni and transtar clears for at least the last 10 years almost exclusively and I have had no problems. If the clears died back then it was your fault and not the product. They never die back on me. One thing I have found is that there is a direct correlation between adding reducer and not adding reducer. the more reducer you add the more dieback effect you will get. (that can be said of high end clear just as well). Also if you wetsand and buff any clear before it properly cured then you will get dieback, again -that will happen with high end clears just as well as lesser priced clears. There is no such thing as "cheap" clears, they all cost a decent amount of money, just you're paying more for the names on some of the clears.

[fastback]

Phil V & 88GT... thanks for your input. I appreciate both perspectives.

I've heard that some of the more expensive clears are formulated to better match new car finishes. Could be BS but its something I’ve heard. Also, have either of you used DC4010?

I'm not familiar with the term "die back"... what is that? And Phil it sounds like you already answered the next question... i.e. how to avoid it.

Thanks again.

[Len]

Phil V & 88GT... thanks for your input. I appreciate both perspectives.

I've heard that some of the more expensive clears are formulated to better match new car finishes. Could be BS but its something I’ve heard. Also, have either of you used DC4010?

I'm not familiar with the term "die back"... what is that? And Phil it sounds like you already answered the next question... i.e. how to avoid it.

Thanks again.

"Die Back" is dulling as the paint ages. This is usually caused by paint that is still giving off solvent or not hardened properly after it's on the road.

[barthmonster]

must be short-term, my camry is 13-years old and the paint is fading fast !!

[68-chevydoula]

I like the PPG 2042. It is dust free fast. It buffs like butter and if you need to rerepair a spot you can, most cheeper clears do not have the rerepair abilty. The only thing adout it that I don't like is you need a gun that atomizes very well with a 1.3 tip.

[fastback]

PPG 2042 is the other clear the guy at the paint shop recommended. He seemed to really like the 2042 and the DC4010.

My Iwata seems to atomize pretty well... and I believe the 1.3 tip should be good for either clear.

[68-chevydoula]

I have paint jobs that I have personaly witnesd staying shiny & new for more than 9 years. I would promote this product to anyone that would give it a shot. Yea, I think you Iwata will be just fine.. This is a little thicker of a product, and does not work as well in cheeper guns.

[Phil V]

I'm confused. I have never seen or worked with any aftermarket clear (high end expensive or lesser priced clears) that had any effect on repairing a spot. A non catalysed base coat can and usually does cause a problem when doing a re-repair but that has nothing to do with the clearcoat on top of it. I drove my last Ford F150 4X4 for 7 years after painting it with DBU basecoat and transtar clear. The paint job was just as shiny when I sold it as it was when I first painted it 7 years earlier.

The ONLY high end clear that I will buy is PPG 3000 which is the best spotting/blending clear I've ever seen and used. I have blended it within a panel and it turns out to be an invisible blend with no halo's etc. Other than that my experience is high end expensive clears have very little differences with the lesser priced clears. Mostly you're just paying for a name.

[88GT]

88GT, Like I said in my earlier post - I have been using Omni and transtar clears for at least the last 10 years almost exclusively and I have had no problems. If the clears died back then it was your fault and not the product. They never die back on me. One thing I have found is that there is a direct correlation between adding reducer and not adding reducer. the more reducer you add the more dieback effect you will get. (that can be said of high end clear just as well). Also if you wetsand and buff any clear before it properly cured then you will get dieback, again -that will happen with high end clears just as well as lesser priced clears. There is no such thing as "cheap" clears, they all cost a decent amount of money, just you're paying more for the names on some of the clears.
Dont get upset just because I disagree with ya Phil. I was stating MY experience. I just dont want to take the chance. Paint products are a definate YGWYPF in my opinion.
Heres an example. Im about to start on a 70 Buick. The base coat in Dupont is going to run me $400. I can clear the car with $75-$80 worth of clear. Nason 465-00 high solids 2:1 clear. Nason is owned by Dupont. Thats Nasons best clear and I wont use the lower end Nason (3:1 or 4:1 clears)
I could use Chroma clear 7900S but Im not too fond of it but using that I could do it for about $125. Using Transtar I would save about $25-$60. Thats nothing compared to the $1000+ in materials I'll need

[ghackett1]

Personally from experience I have had great success with DBU and Concept 2021 clear. (might be 2022 not sure)> Anyway, I paint in a home made spray booth and have restored three cars with this combo and it has always turned out awesome.

[68-chevydoula]

Personally from experience I have had great success with DBU and Concept 2021 clear. (might be 2022 not sure)> Anyway, I paint in a home made spray booth and have restored three cars with this combo and it has always turned out awesome.

Its 2021 and its 2042s slower drying sister. They spray the same.

[68-chevydoula]

I'm confused. I have never seen or worked with any aftermarket clear (high end expensive or lesser priced clears) that had any effect on repairing a spot. A non catalysed base coat can and usually does cause a problem when doing a re-repair but that has nothing to do with the clearcoat on top of it. I drove my last Ford F150 4X4 for 7 years after painting it with DBU basecoat and transtar clear. The paint job was just as shiny when I sold it as it was when I first painted it 7 years earlier.

The ONLY high end clear that I will buy is PPG 3000 which is the best spotting/blending clear I've ever seen and used. I have blended it within a panel and it turns out to be an invisible blend with no halo's etc. Other than that my experience is high end expensive clears have very little differences with the lesser priced clears. Mostly you're just paying for a name.

That has just been my experience but it may be partly because I spray DBC (non catalysed base coat).

[Len]

I also use a non-catylized base and find that repairs take an extra step. If I sand through the clear and apply base over the spot there's a good chance that the base will absorb solvent from the new base and cause the clear to wrinkle around the edge of the sand-thru. If I do sand through I'll usually apply a shield of clear or primer, allow it to harden then sand it a little before I apply base. This stops the old base from absorbing the new base and my repairs are much easier.

[88GT]

I think clearing would be a better option than primer, but I also dont activate my base Unless I need to spot paint during the clear coating application which is almost never. But, I never have the wrinkling problem you describe. It might varry from one brand to the next.

[fixdent]

I am a Dupont user...mostly 72200 and 75500 clears. The are quite expensive,

I have also use the nason Select clears with good results....I'm not exactly sure of the numbers but 497-00 overall clear rings a bell.

--
Gordon

[68-chevydoula]

I am a Dupont user...mostly 72200 and 75500 clears. The are quite expensive,

I have also use the nason Select clears with good results....I'm not exactly sure of the numbers but 497-00 overall clear rings a bell.

--
Gordon

Im not a Dupont user but I have sprayed the 72200. It is a great clear and buffs nice to. I didn't feel the nason had as good of a gloss or if it did I didn't buff long enough. It buffs hard I think.

[gsr22]

I am a Dupont user...mostly 72200 and 75500 clears. The are quite expensive,

I have also use the nason Select clears with good results....I'm not exactly sure of the numbers but 497-00 overall clear rings a bell.

--
Gordon

how do these clears compare?

[StocRoc]

Sorry to be a little off topic here, but are you guys saying that you don't use activator in your base? How does that work? You just reduce it then spray it? What's the benefit? Obviously I'm still a noob, b/c I've never heard of this before.

[88GT]

I am a Dupont user...mostly 72200 and 75500 clears. The are quite expensive,

I have also use the nason Select clears with good results....I'm not exactly sure of the numbers but 497-00 overall clear rings a bell.

--
Gordon
497-00 cant be compared to those clears IMO. the 465-00 can however. I found the 465-00 to be hard to polish when it is cold. In warm weather it seems to buff fine
and a benifit of not activating base is that you can save what you dont spray out of the gun. Activator is optional in some base coats

[Len]

Sorry to be a little off topic here, but are you guys saying that you don't use activator in your base? How does that work? You just reduce it then spray it? What's the benefit? Obviously I'm still a noob, b/c I've never heard of this before.

Because of the chemistry of many two stage products the base doesn't need activator. The benefits would be less variables and less cost. Some base coat products are quite similar to acrylic enamel and need to be activated in order to harden while others dry harder, thinner and quickly plus they bond well with the clear so they don't need a hardener. There are pros and cons to both types of products.

[DougMN]

Omni clear will chip easier that ppg 4000.

[Dennis N. Schmidt]

I find it amazing that people don't catalyze their basecoats. The additional cost is insignificant (one ounce of activator per quart) and the advantage of no lifting if you sand through is so great I just can't see not doing it. The only downside is that you've got to estimate your needs more accurately or you waste base but I'm pretty good at that. I always activate.

[68-chevydoula]

I find it amazing that people don't catalyze their basecoats. The additional cost is insignificant (one ounce of activator per quart) and the advantage of no lifting if you sand through is so great I just can't see not doing it. The only downside is that you've got to estimate your needs more accurately or you waste base but I'm pretty good at that. I always activate.

They told me DBC 2000 works better w/o cat. I don't have a problem with lifting if I use the PPG clears with it. But shopline look out, nason bad to lift. Thats why I said stay with the name brand stuff at the start of this thread. Just my 2 cents

[pane2k]

I've personally used high end and low end clears depending on what the job calls for. Im not going to waste a 200 dollar a setup clear on a 1980 toyota corolla. And at the same time its against my better judgement to use a 75 dollar setup of clear on an 08 mercedes.
Thats just my personal preference.
However, i have noticed that the cheaper clears can last and hold a gloss. I do notice however the cheaper clears take longer to get rock hard to sand and polish. And if you do sand and polish them too soon they die back and look horrible.
But in all fairness if you sand and polish a high end clear too soon..it too can die back.
This is such a hard topic with so many clears on the market and so many different opinions.

I think the most common issue that people see with dieback is when they sand and polish too soon.
I sprayed a car in florida with HB clear...which is some real cheap stuff from kemperle... Like 100 dollars for 7.5 litres of product and it still looks like the day i finished it- simply beautiful and i never rubbed it. Was it a fluke? I dont know.
I also sprayed a hood on a honda crv with this stuff... Sanded and polished it the following morning.(clearly too soon) put it outside and within 5 hours it looked like leather sitting in the sun.

Whatever clear you end up going with. I personally suggest letting the car sit for a minimum of a week before rubbing it. If you can wait even longer i'd wait longer.

I just painted one of my personal cars with sikkens clear...Ive had it sitting 3 weeks and still havent rubbed it.
IMO when you do this..its pretty bullet proof that when you do finally rub it...it wont die back.
But anythign is possible

[pane2k]

and i do realize that my explanation or whatever you want to call it...kind of just goes around in a circle... but thats the problem.
Its kind of hard to answer this question. Everyone uses different products...and everyone has different opinions.

[68-chevydoula]

I've personally used high end and low end clears depending on what the job calls for. Im not going to waste a 200 dollar a setup clear on a 1980 toyota corolla. And at the same time its against my better judgement to use a 75 dollar setup of clear on an 08 mercedes.
Thats just my personal preference.
However, i have noticed that the cheaper clears can last and hold a gloss. I do notice however the cheaper clears take longer to get rock hard to sand and polish. And if you do sand and polish them too soon they die back and look horrible.
But in all fairness if you sand and polish a high end clear too soon..it too can die back.
This is such a hard topic with so many clears on the market and so many different opinions.

I think the most common issue that people see with dieback is when they sand and polish too soon.
I sprayed a car in florida with HB clear...which is some real cheap stuff from kemperle... Like 100 dollars for 7.5 litres of product and it still looks like the day i finished it- simply beautiful and i never rubbed it. Was it a fluke? I dont know.
I also sprayed a hood on a honda crv with this stuff... Sanded and polished it the following morning.(clearly too soon) put it outside and within 5 hours it looked like leather sitting in the sun.

Whatever clear you end up going with. I personally suggest letting the car sit for a minimum of a week before rubbing it. If you can wait even longer i'd wait longer.

I just painted one of my personal cars with sikkens clear...Ive had it sitting 3 weeks and still havent rubbed it.
IMO when you do this..its pretty bullet proof that when you do finally rub it...it wont die back.
But anythign is possible


Very well said, I agree 100%

[Serge]

Gee...you like hard work...

From my experience:

Cheep clears are:

Harder and chip and crack more easily.
Dont have enough UV protection in them.

Good clears are:

More flexible when cured.
Have better UV protection.

The more flexible clears will resist cracking and chipping better than the hard as rock ones. The UV protection is obvious on custom paints with kandies and some red pigments.

My preffered cheep clear is Valspar's AC200...
My preffered High end is House of Kolor UC35 or UC01 (but its now illegal in most places).

You need to color sand and buff in the time, otherwise its much harder to polish as it fully cures, especially with the cheep clears. If its going to die back, its going to die back, wether you polish it fast or not...you're just going to have to re-polish it..

I can sand and polish UC35 the next day...and its very easy to get to perfection....AC200 you must get to the next day or you're in for some work. I find that the same is true for Transtar, shopline, Xtreme and other cheeper clears...

By the way, the Transtar is not a bad product...I have junkers out there that are still shiny after 5 years in the snow (althoug anything that flexes is a little checked...).

What is nice about the AC200 is that it needs no flex additive as it is pre-flexed from the factory...so its a cheep clear that is quite flexible and chip resistant.

[pane2k]

Serge, actually I've rubbed cars the next day while the clear was still soft, and i've rubbed a car a year after i've painted it...I personally dont notice too much of a difference as far as labor is concerned.
From my personal experience if you rub a car too soon and you do get the die back...if you try to rub it again you dont get the super deep gloss that you obtain the first time you rub it. That die back always seems to hinder the finished product even after you rub it again. ( in my experience )
And i'd personally perfer to let the clear get rock hard..and rub it once..even if it is a little more work..rather than rub it a second time and have to do the cleanup twice.

When I speak of letting a car sit a week to polish it...i'm only talking about cars you have time to finish and you want to obtain an ultra show finish. Obviously your not going to let an insurance job sit there for a week while you wait to polish it...especially when the customer is in a rental car begging for their car.

But again..thats why this topic is so hard...everyones experiences and preferences are different. Theres no right answer.
If you said you were going to use the MOST expensive clear on the market like sikkens hs vision II or whatever its called at somewhere around 600 a setup...someone would come on and say it sucks.

[Chris L]

I currently use,and have for 3 years,Matrix system base (non activated) and never have a problem with lifting.I think the key when spraying over a repair etc..is to build it up light,and not hose it on where the solvents can attack the underlying finish and cause it to lift.As far as clear goes,i use Matrix ms20 high solids clear .If it weren't for delivery ,distance issues,i would use PPG 2021.By far the easiest clear i have ever buffed on.I use 161 Omni(shopline) for years with never a faulty issue with it

[pane2k]

I currently use,and have for 3 years,Matrix system base (non activated) and never have a problem with lifting.I think the key when spraying over a repair etc..is to build it up light,and not hose it on where the solvents can attack the underlying finish and cause it to lift.As far as clear goes,i use Matrix ms20 high solids clear .If it weren't for delivery ,distance issues,i would use PPG 2021.By far the easiest clear i have ever buffed on.I use 161 Omni(shopline) for years with never a faulty issue with it

any non activated base will give you lifting issues if you break through the clear and try to recoat it.
Like len said earlier..best way is to cover it with a little primer...just to avoid any problems

[Chris L]

any non activated base will give you lifting issues if you break through the clear and try to recoat it.
Like len said earlier..best way is to cover it with a little primer...just to avoid any problems
Reply With Quote
Maybe for you,not for me.I have been doing this 18 years now,full time for 8 and i have sprayed over cut through's without wrinkling.

[68-chevydoula]

Chris how long have you been spraing Matrix? I was told it is PPG DBC 2000 under a new name. Is their any thing to that? How's the match?

[Chris L]

Chris how long have you been spraing Matrix? I was told it is PPG DBC 2000 under a new name. Is their any thing to that? How's the match?
Reply With Quote
I've been using Matrix full time now for about 3 years.I have heard rumors of them "copying" from PPG..I have no idea about that.I do know that my supplier uses PPg color chips etc.,but also dupont etc.The only color match issues i have had,are from him tinting them wrong,and that has only been about4 colors in that 3 years that i questioned(keep in mind im a one man shop,2-4 cars a month,depending on size of job).I usually blend everything,even whites anymore.There are so many variables now days i just eliminate it by blending.

[Len]

Many smaller paint companies don't actually manufacturer the paint themselves, they have purchasing contracts with large paint manufacturers. This allows them to purchase in bulk, package and private label the paint products under their name. You could be purchasing PPG, BASF, DuPont etc. when you buy from smaller companies. The bulk purchases allow them to discount the price but they may not have the wide distribution and/or the support offered when the price is higher. Paint products are mostly pretty competitive and it's usually a YGWYPF situation.

[reflections7]

still my favorite. classic euro clear http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v313/reflections7/l2-1.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v313/reflections7/ab1.jpg

[All Dry]

still my favorite. classic euro clear http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v313/reflections7/l2-1.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v313/reflections7/ab1.jpg
Great looking Work! I am assuming you did the paint, why in particular do you favor Transtar? Mike

[Chris L]

One mistake i made recently was to purchase a "cheap" clear for some car lots that want you to work for free basically.This one guy wants a two tone lower stripe on every car he buys..so i thought ill get a inexpensive clear for that like 80 a gallon,with hardner..i used it once,it wouldnt lay down,and it was the hardest clear to buff i have ever used.I still have most of the gallon on the shelf.Some of it is just plain junk.

[reflections7]

Great looking Work! I am assuming you did the paint, why in particular do you favor Transtar? Mike


the DOI disticness of image is great with the euro clear . Many favorible comments like what paint is that. Of course many of the high end clears will look just as good if wet sanded and buffed but the euro clear really does a good job for me.