Does quality of gun really make that BIG of a difference

[keb1]

If I am not shooting some heavy metallic just a solid...
Do you think that the quality of the gun make that much of a difference ?
I mean after shooting the clear I still have to color sand then buff it.
Doesn't the whole act of sanding and buffing the clear make the atomozation factor of a better gun not necessary.:confused: ?
Don't get me wrong..
I'm not encouraging anybody to buy some cheap chinese crap.
I buy the nore expensive because it last and you can get parts.
I own a Devlibliss (non hvlp), Iwata LV100 and a Sata KLC.
Am I thinking wrong here ?

[68-chevyman]

It depends some cheap guns arn't bad and others are crap. I bought one for $15.00 once. It sprayed decent. Then I took it apart to clean it and it never sprayed again.

[cruzindablvd]

I love sata guns they might cost more but you can notice the flow on how the gun moves like a pensil.

[Mooch]

You mean like a streamer on top of a lance ? Now I have heard everything.

Mooch

[68-chevyman]

Mooch, is it just me or is SATA on your s**t list. I like them to. But them I have a German background. A little pride may make me bias.

[Mooch]

Not really I could care less about any make of spray gun. Just a tool to do a job. I just never did like BS no matter who says it. mooch

[frostje]

:rolleyes: I never understand why you would want a cheap gun. Whats the point. hf guns,ingersolrand or any chiwanese crap suck at laying down paint. thats it,spend 100 for decent gun or use fingerpaint or stick to latex for drywall just my 2 cents.

[68-chevyman]

You might feel a little different if we were talking about sirgical tools.

[X711]

In a gun you get what you pay for.

Alot of the ching-chang-wong guns imho are poor and suck at
atomizing the paint correctly.

A good gun capable of atomizing your paint correctly will pay divends over
time.

Thanks ... X

[Mooch]

So you have bought those cheap ching - chang- wong guns ? Or is this just want you have heard ? Mooch

[X711]

Mooch, I have a cheap one made by "Nikota Tool"

Looking at the gun it appears to be well made.

It costs $50.00. It sprays but no where near as good as my higher end
gun or my mid to low price finex by sharpe.

The gun does not atomize the paint correctly, i.e its not capeable of breaking
the material down fine enough for a smooth application.

It was only 50 bucks, so no big deal. I use it now to apply surface prep it
does ok for that.

Thanks X

[Mooch]

Cheap guns have their place for sure. Astros while not being really cheap offer a good gun at a good price. All stainless steel needle and tips. They also spray well for those who don't want to or can't spend more.

I only use a Astro LVLP for all my epoxy now and for almost all my poly primer. I can afford to buy any gun out there. But have found none that will spray clear/coat better than a Sharpe T1 compliant . Notice I said better many will do just as well. I have no beef with anyone who likes Sata or any gun. Just with people who knock lower priced guns that they have never used.
I buy a lot of cheap guns just to see how they spray. Than I give them away to kids who need them. It's really fun to try different guns but we all have our favorites . Good talking to you guys it was interesting. mooch

[X711]

Hi Mooch, The astros do provide a good gun for a good fair price-point.

I too can afford pretty much any gun, I see your using the Sharpe T1 compliant.
I have heard many good things about this product, Hopefull one day soon I
can try one. I also heard they are pretty good for keeping the Fog or haze
down in the booth or garrage and provide low Overspray, is that true.

I use the Devilbiss gfg 670 my self, it lays the paint out smooth and flat.
It works very well on single stage too which can be difficult to spray to
keep the peel out of.

Thanks ... X

[jade71ragtop]

I think what keb1 wants to know (and me, too!) is the actual difference in quality of end result. Will using a crappy gun shoot yourself in the foot from the start and prevent you from a nice looking paint job or can you make the paint look just as good as if it were shot from a $200.00 gun with some extra elbow grease?
For me, saving $100 and buying a cheap gun is worth a lot more to me than the extra hours it would take to sand and polish out extra orange peel. For a kid like me, pizza delivery doesn't pay so much !!!
Mooch, got any extra guns you want to sell a poor soul like me who's only trying to get his old Cutlass painted? :)
Chris

[Mooch]

X711 the devilbiss plus is all you need. Greta gun and as good as the T1 .

Rag top you pizza guys get me everytime you deliver. Crappy gun is a crappy gun. You can get a pretty good gun for about a hundred bucks.

Lets face it almost everybody sands and buffs . I would buy one of the cheaper priced Duro-blocks from Len. I believe he has one with a few extra tips that might be just right. Mooch

[Len]

Automotive-type spray guns probably start around $5 and end up over $500 and the price is almost always determined by the engineering and material quality of the gun. Everyone has their limit not only to their wallet but also the result they want to achieve so the choice is up to the individual. Saying that a $60 gun can spray as good as any other gun is not a reality that I've found to be true but if it works to achieve a result you're happy with then that's all the gun that you need.

[wulffy]

This made me think of a story my dad told me when I was a kid. He said he worked with a guy that years before worked for Rolls Royce and they put down the paint using brushes!!! He said the paint was expensive and they didn't have overspray obviously and since they color sanded between coats they weren't concerned about how the paint was laid.
I don't know if the guy was on the level but if he was (I do know that years ago that is how American automakers painted) I would think this was only possible using non-metallics like black, grey, etc.

[68-chevyman]

I have heard that to. alkied enamel really flows. That is what they used. I brushed some on a shower once, it was hard to see the brush marks.

[Dennis N. Schmidt]

OK, I've held off getting into this fray long enough so I'll chime in now. The world is quickly changing in every respect and paint guns are no exception. The older Chinese and Taiwanese knock offs simply didn't atomize as well as a SATA or higher end DeVilbiss or Sharpe gun since they were made on older generation machine tools and were not hand tuned as the better guns were. But things are changing.

All spray gun manufacturers today probably buy their CNC machine tools from either Japan or Germany no matter where they are located. These tools don't know whether they are being used to make STAR (the company that actually makes ASTRO and NESCO's private labeled guns), SATA or DuraBlock guns. They are simply cutting metal for whomever owns them.

The new models of Chinese and Taiwanese guns (the recently introduced EVO from ASTRO and the renovated Quantum they just replaced the DX series with are excellent examples of this change as are the DuraBlock guns Len is so fond of) spray very well and feel very well machined. Why shouldn't they since they are being made by the same top quality machine tools that are being used by SATA and everybody else.

The days of the old craftsman using his file to tune in a SATA are rapidly going away. If the machine tool is used properly the parts are accurate to a ten thousands of an inch, there is no need for hand tuning as the precision is there. We don't have people at GM hand sanding a crankshaft anymore to meet tolerance the machine tool is good enough that this is unnecessary. So too is hand tuning of spray guns.

One way to see this happening is to look at the new DuraBlock and STAR guns. These guns no longer use a gasket of any type to connect the fluid nozzle to the gun body as SATA and DeVilbiss and Sharpe still do. DeVilbiss and SATA do it behind the nozzle in the air diffusor and Sharpe does it at the nozzle itself (which Len and I both hate) but the new Chinese guns are so well machined that they can use a metal to metal seal without a gasket and not leak. What this tells you is that these tools were made on a first class CNC machining center.

So the modern <$100 guns from STAR and DuraBlock are pretty amazing and if I was looking for a good gun at a low price this is where I would and have gone to find them.

In closing it's always best to sand the least. You paid a lot of money for that clearcoat so why sand most of it off. What I'm saying is that for little coin it is now possible to get very good spray guns and results. I wouldn't use a $50 HF gun to paint a project car but I'm pretty convinced that I could use an ASTRO EVO to paint one fairly well and according to Len the DuraBlock will do the same. When the gun cost half as much as the clearcoat I see little advantage to a $50 gun verses a very good $100 gun so go with the high quality $100 gun.

[X711]

Hi Dennis, I disagree with your Analogy.

The western world typically innovates, the Asian world copies !
When you purchase a genuine Sata,Sharpe,Devilbiss,Binks regardless
of where they were manufactured you are purchasing Quality
right out of the box. Many man/woman Cad hours went into the design
of these products.

The high end branded guns earned their reputation world wide because
they work as intended. The companys that designed them have people
that innovate. This is how these companys continue to bring newer and
better products to market. The material including the quality of the metal
was chosen for specific specs, even down to the plating. All the entities to
make the gun were designed in up front.

IMHO and not to get into a pissing match, I Purchase "American" to
me when it comes to spray guns it means Quality. I can call up any American
gun manufacturer on the phone and speak to someone that speaks english
imagine that. My local body shop even carry's replacement parts.

In summary, why by a clone from "Strong Clone CO Hong Kong" with the baggage that comes with it when you can purchase American or European instead for not too much more money.

Its not simply about manufacturing the gun its about the Design ! and the in built quality right from the get go.

Until the Asian Knock Offs make there name in the body shop, they will always be just that a Knock Off IMHO.

No flames intended, just my point of view.

X

[Steve g]

If all it takes to not flame is a disclaimer, count mine in.
At times I think you really have to step back and ask yourself how much of your brand loyalty is simply the "Made in America" flag waving. I'm old enough to have lived through a time when cars coming out of Japan were referred to as "Jap Crap". Interestly enough, not many people talk that way anymore. It is generally accepted that Japanese engineering and quality is right up there, to the extent that the Big Three are seeing troubled time that they never imagined possible on account of it. Remember the stories of the GM plant employee parking lots being 2/3 full of Japanese cars.

China and Korea are now the emerging markets that Japan once was. There are more highrise construction cranes working in China than in the rest of the world combined at the moment. Things are not the same as they were 10 years ago.
Regardless of who invented the wheel, many can make it. These guns are not rocket science and it's not a stretch to believe that someone else can produce them just as well, even if they can not take credit for the original design. The biggest flaw in their plan is copying old technology.

I personally am getting a little tired of paying the exorbitant (sp?) prices that many American manufacturers think that they are entitled to charge simply because they can say it's made in America. $34 for a 15 mm combination wrench from Snap On is outragous. This is a world market today, and they need to be able to compete in it. This offshore competition is good for everyone. Manufacturers are forced to become more efficient, the consumer sees better value.
Oh, and I would not avoid buying a Mercedes because my German is a little rusty. I don't need to talk to the guy that made it, only to the distributer that warrants it and sells the parts, right here in Canada.

Having said all of that, there may be one good reason to not buy some offshore items. The Chinese are notorious for not respecting international copyright laws. The original designers are in many cases not properly compensated.
But, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. (Canada/US/NAFTA softwood lumber issue)
JMHO
Steve g.

[X711]

Steve you bring up good points.

I am curious about the New Dura-Block guns though. I looked around this
site but was unable to find a Specification Sheet and detail drawing with
P/N's for the product build. "Found Noting"

Perhaps I am looking in the wrong place.

Where could I find that ?

Thanks ... X

[Len]

Steve you bring up good points.

I am curious about the New Dura-Block guns though. I looked around this
site but was unable to find a Specification Sheet and detail drawing with
P/N's for the product build. "Found Noting"

Perhaps I am looking in the wrong place.

Where could I find that ?

Thanks ... X


What exactly are you looking for? I don't have any spec sheets for spray guns on line. I usually leave that up to the manufacturer.

Each gun comes with product breakdowns and part numbers. I have most here but not on the site. If you're looking for something specific let me know.

[Dennis N. Schmidt]

X711, I am perhaps in a unique position to respond to your design comment as I am an Electrical Engineer in the Semiconductor Industry by profession. It greatly troubles me to say this but China and India are now producing 10 times the number (and worse yet quality) of engineers that America is and American graduate schools are almost completely staffed by Chinese and Indian students. Whatever you're buying from American companies is almost certainly designed by somebody who wasn't born here. Additionally, many of these people after getting experience in America return home to either start competing companies or work for Indian or Chinese companies.

The Dura-Block guns are copies of nobody's guns. The new Astro's only faintly resemble the SATA's and Iwata's they look like. If you look at the aircaps and where the hole patterns are they are not even close to exact copes as their earlier versions were. Design is moving offshore as well.

If you need to get any more depressed I suggest you read the book "The World Is Flat" by Friedman which is a book describing globalization. Things have changed and America's position as world leader in technology is quickly eroding. As an American technologist I hate it, but I know that it's absolutely true.

[X711]

Len I was thinking since you were selling the guns the tech sheets for
same would be online at this site. I saw the pictures but would prefer to
read their manual and look at the spec sheet for the product.

On their higher end gun, Just a couple of questions. Dura-Block 007

What material is the cap and body, needle made out of.
Is the gun, gun washer safe
What is max available fan width at 8" panel distance
What sort of Warrenty do they carry.
Do they offer a chart of paint manufacturers vs tip size reccomendations.
How long has the product been on the market.

Thanks in-advance for your response.

X

[TNshadetree]

I bought Sata because when I researched all the body shops in my area about what guns they recoemended I use I got a lot of different suggestions. But when I asked them what they used, I only got one answer, Sata. I got a JEt B which was only around $300. So I paid $150 more than the cheaper guns.

I rarely cut and buff because so far my finishes haven't required it. So how many bottles of compound and hours of buffing has that extra $150 dollars saved me.

As for Americas loss of jobs, design and prodction to the far East, I can't see an end to it anytime soon. Loss of jobs is a bad thing, but take a few moments to think of why we were victorious during the second world war. It was because we had more resources and production than anyone else. Once we've frittered that away in the name of low cost, we won't be able to get it back quickly enough when the inevitable storm clouds gather again.

[Len]

Sata is one of the best guns on the market especially if you do this type of work for a living. They can take a beating and keep spraying. However as far as the quality of the finish that can be applied I'd say that there are other guns that can perform equally well or maybe even better but may not be as physically bullet proof as lower cost guns. Additional tips on the most popular Satas are around $200 but on another good gun could be $50 or less; this means that you could have several different guns or set ups for the price of a Sata and purchase new parts when (or if) you should ever need them for a fraction of the price. If the gun sprays as well and won't need to endure a lot abuse or the abuse can be corrected easily and inexpensively choices expand and a person can make a choice based on their situation, skill and desired results.

I've had a long term relationship with Sata as well as other manufacturers, they all have their place in the market and in the shops and all have their fans. It's kinda like comparing paint products, once you get to master a certain brand you think it's the best... at least until you master another brand.;) I've been using Dura-Block guns for almost a month and I can see the wisdom in their designs. I'm excited about how great the DBs perform but I don't have long term experience with them yet.

Another comparison I can make is spray guns and cars.... The Sata is like the Mercedes while other quality foreign made guns may be compared to Toyotas, they all get you from A to B in comfort, one will cost more to purchase and repair but may go further in the long run. I'm finding the Toyota-type spray guns can be lighter and more efficient and handle better, just like the cars and I'm producing beautiful finishes.

[kenc]

X711, I am perhaps in a unique position to respond to your design comment as I am an Electrical Engineer in the Semiconductor Industry by profession. It greatly troubles me to say this but China and India are now producing 10 times the number (and worse yet quality) of engineers that America is and American graduate schools are almost completely staffed by Chinese and Indian students. Whatever you're buying from American companies is almost certainly designed by somebody who wasn't born here. Additionally, many of these people after getting experience in America return home to either start competing companies or work for Indian or Chinese companies.

T



Hmmmm,
Hardly "unique". I have been designing Analog I.C.'s for over 25 years and take issue with most of what you say in your first paragraph.
India and China turn out hundreds of thousands of "engineers" per year agreed, I use the term loosely because most of them are mediocre and almost all are targetted to the almost "software" design world of digital design coding Verilog/VHDL etc. They are not TRUE engineers for the most part, because they are working in a field (digital design) which is governed by strict regimented rules, and heavily orchestrated by sophisticated CAD tools which remove the "hands on" that engineering SHOULD represent.
On the other hand the TRUE electrical engineers - at least in the Semiconductor world - are pretty much restricted to process and analog design these days. Fields in which the Indian and Chinese folks have made little inroads since they require real interest in how things work and original thought and in which success does NOT require you to simply be able to push a few buttons on a place-and-route tool.

Well, that's got that off my chest. I'd be curious to find out what it is that you do in the Semi industry Dennis?

Ken

[Dennis N. Schmidt]

I'm a Staff Engineer in the Defectivity Group at STMicroelectronics in Phoenix, AZ Fab PF-1. I am responsible for the KLA-Tencor patterned wafer defect tools both bright and darkfield (2139 and AIT II).

[Dennis N. Schmidt]

I agree with many of your statements but truth is it is now a digital world with analog being a fairly small chuck of the larger electronics picture. We do digitial signal processors almost exclusively with some memory at PF-1. STM has analog products which are primarily build on small wafers in old factories mostly in Europe and Singapore. PF-1 is an eight inch 0.25µm facility.

[kenc]

I agree with many of your statements but truth is it is now a digital world with analog being a fairly small chuck of the larger electronics picture. We do digitial signal processors almost exclusively with some memory at PF-1. STM has analog products which are primarily build on small wafers in old factories mostly in Europe and Singapore. PF-1 is an eight inch 0.25µm facility.

No doubt the large volume is in the digital side of things, but try telling National Semiconductor - where I work designing Precision Op-Amps mainly - Analog Devices, Texas Instruments, Linear Technology, Maxim, and a host of other companies that Analog is dead (I know you didn't say that but I've heard it often).
Most analog processes are at least as sophisticated as any deep sub-micron digital processes but in a different way. I typically design on a 34 layer complementary BiCMOS process which is far from something you'd want to consign to an outdated 4" wafer fab.
Anyway, everyone else on the board is asleep at this point.......

[kenc]

Back to paint guns:
I don't have an issue paying good money for U.S made equipment since I know in some part, that the money is going to pay a good living wage and health benifits for U.S. workers and their families. I also have no problem buying budget Chinese tools and do often.
The one thing I don't get though is the $475 price tag of this 3 headed Durablock gun. Len says that it sprays well, I'll take his word for it. But where is that $475 going? The Chinese workers making the Durablock are porbably getting paid the same as the Chinese workers making the Harbor Freight guns. I think it's a nother prime example of U.S. companies looking at short term profit and committing long term suicide. The excess profits from the Durablock go to bolster Dura-blocks "executives" coffers while the manufacturing expertise goes to Asia.
By the time our kids are old enough to follow in our footsteps, there will be no footsteps to follow- unless flipping burgers counts 'cos that's all that will be left for them.
Ken

[Dennis N. Schmidt]

Which factory. I am familiar with most of National's plants. Sunnyvale, CA, Arliington, TX and Portland ME. They also use to have some action up in Utah if I'm not mistaken. No disrespect to analog, I love the stuff after all it's what an old fart like myself learned in school.

[kenc]

The headquarters - Sunnyvale, well officially it's Santa Clara, but it's right on the border of the two. The FAB I deal with mostly is the one in Arlington TX. Maine does more of the deep submicron stuff plus the SiGe.

[X711]

<Snip> kenc wrote

I don't have an issue paying good money for U.S made equipment since I know in some part, that the money is going to pay a good living wage and health benifits for U.S. workers and their families. I also have no problem buying budget Chinese tools and do often.
The one thing I don't get though is the $475 price tag

================================================== =========

I taught I was the Only one that noticed that and I agree $475 for the Dura-Block 007 gun is Way Steep. It does have 007 printed on it though so I guess it must be good. "Man with the golden gun" Boom Boom !

I am still waiting for answers to my previous questions I had posted asking
Len about the gun specifics. No reply as of yet. Even a link will do to the
tech sheet, throw me a bone please. Who is making them ?

One other thing comes to mind, what happens after the flood of these chang
guns are gone from the market, will they be gone for good or will the company
that made them continue to make them. Whats one to do for replacement parts.. They may be difficult to obtain especially if the gun manufacturer is
now in the hub-cap business instead.

All this debate on these china made guns reminds me of an old wise saying.

Confucius Say man who buy quality china tool
>>>> gets good Shaft! :)

Thanks X

[Dennis N. Schmidt]

That's why I'm willing to spend $100 for a Chinese gun with the understanding that if it goes belly up so what I'm only out a C-note. I'm not going $500 for the exact reasons you mention X711. This is why to me DeVilbiss is the answer if SATA no longer can be because ITW isn't going out of business anytime soon.

Kenc,

Just to complete the loop we do SiGe too and run mostly BiCMOS products. Mostly for Nokia cell phones.

[jade71ragtop]

One other thing comes to mind, what happens after the flood of these chang
guns are gone from the market, will they be gone for good or will the company
that made them continue to make them. Whats one to do for replacement parts.. They may be difficult to obtain especially if the gun manufacturer is
now in the hub-cap business instead.

I would be more worried about American manufacturers not being able to compete with the cheap guns than vice-versa. In a market like this, there is always a fairly large slice of consumers who will buy the cheaper gun regardless of quality or national allegiance. This of course gives the advantage to the overseas companies and forces the American companies to either outsource or close their doors.
Chris

[X711]

Snip from dennis

This is why to me DeVilbiss is the answer if SATA no longer can be because ITW isn't going out of business anytime soon.

================================================== =========

Dennis I agree.

FYI there customer service is noting short of excellent ! Too

There Plus gun is made right here in the USA. The body of the gun is one piece cnc machined aluminum, not cast or forged, One piece !

Quality and reputation speak for itself. A++++

Thanks X