View Full Version : Wimpsy Waffley Panel... how to support?
jcmeyer5
10-17-2006, 03:14 PM
How do I support a panel that likes to flex? I have looked for the reason for the flexing, but I cannot find it. This is a new panel that I welded in. When it is in its undisturbed position, there is no evidence of flexing or stress anywhere. When I started to sand off the black coating that came on it, I noticed that the panel liked to flex… something that WILL be a problem when I am trying to block in a straight panel. I have to do the other side of the car, so I have the panel for the other side, and it appears to have the same flexing issue as the one I have welded in.
Help?
dave_demented
10-17-2006, 03:24 PM
where is this panel located out of curiosity?
jcmeyer5
10-17-2006, 03:51 PM
Sorry. It's on the car in my garage. :)
It's the driver quarterpanel on a 1969 Dart Swinger.
Using "aftermarket" sheetmetal you come to realize that it doesn't have the strength of an OEM part. If you can drive the edges of the panel toward the middle it will help stiffen it or you could try shrinking it in the center of the area of the problem then filling it to get the proper shape. Are you able to get to the back side of the panel?
jcmeyer5
10-18-2006, 09:03 PM
I have full access to the back of the panel.
I knew when I welded it in that it was thinner metal, but its all I have... the quarter was shot because of both collission and rust damage.
Serge
10-18-2006, 10:16 PM
Even if it's thin, it should not oilcan. It probably did not oilcan before you put it in the the car. The welding probably shrunk some area and these shrunk areas are pulling on the metal...it now needs to relax a little...
I take a flat dolly (well they are not really flat, they have a rounded side) and use the rounded side to hit the pannel from the inside. You have to be carefull to hit the pannel flat with the dolly, not on an edge of the dolly. You don't want to dent the pannel, you just want to pull it out into shape. I tap it rather vigorously from the inside out this way, all around the tin can area and in the tin can area. Tap for a while, try it...tap again...try it until it sits stiff...then inspect the front real well and address any distortion you put in it with a hammer and dolly.
There is no miracle, you must stretch those shrunken areas that are pulling the metal out of shape...
Hope this helps,
Serge
jcmeyer5
10-19-2006, 08:09 PM
The thing is, when its just sitting there on the car, it looks perfect. No waves, no oil-canning. It just likes to flex. Also, the area in question is far below the weld line.
I have another quarter skin for the other side... it does the same thing and it hasnt been cut or welded.
Not that I wont try the dolly thing, it may still work.
dave_demented
10-19-2006, 08:28 PM
it might just be the metal too, try that dolly think and if that doesnt work try lens idea of shrinking it, itll pull the metal in a little bit from where it should be, but nothing that some filler wont fix...
Serge
10-20-2006, 08:39 AM
That pannel is a piece of...crap...
If it has the proper shape at rest and it's just too flimzy, then my trick of slapping it by the back with a dolly will probably do more damage than good...
I dunno now....fiberglass mat and resin on the back of the pannel? Give it some rigidity? Just speculating at this point, never had to do that...
Let us know how you fix it...
Serge
John Kelly
10-20-2006, 08:44 AM
I have not done as many aftermarket panels as others have, but the problem I've seen with them is not enough compound shape. They need stretching and smoothing to have enough crown to stiffen them up sometimes....tons of work. You might be able to stretch a small area enough to make the panel stiffer if you are lucky.
John www.ghiaspecialties.com
jcmeyer5
10-20-2006, 08:53 AM
The panel STAMPING was excellent.. the lines are right, and the shape is good. The thickness of the panel though... yeah... crap.
I like the fiberglass matting behind it idea.
I played with it again last night... if I dont put a lot of pressure on it, it doesnt NOTICABLY flex... but that doesnt mean that it isnt flexing.
Eh... like I said... this panel was detroyed. I didnt have much choice on replacing it. I DO know that on the other side, I wont be welding in the full panel... jsut enough to cover the damage.
jcmeyer5
10-20-2006, 09:00 AM
it might just be the metal too, try that dolly think and if that doesnt work try lens idea of shrinking it, itll pull the metal in a little bit from where it should be, but nothing that some filler wont fix...
Okay, so I want to try to shrink it... are we talking a shrink disc or a torch or ?? I have NEVER shrunk metal before, but I am willing to try!
I read the metal shrinking article, but I dont think that is the method that would work best for me?
Serge
10-20-2006, 09:48 AM
You could try working the area with a hammer and dolly first. Shrinking and stress is probably what is creating the problem in the first place. Some of those cheep parts are only stamped once and still have alot of stress in them.
Have you tried to work the area that tincans with a hammer and dolly. Tap it from behind with the dolly than smooth it out with on dolly hammering. Spend 30min on it and see if it improves. the idea here is to push the metal from the inside out to stretch it a little and then smooth it with the hammer and dolly. You are better with a pannel that is a little wavy from hammering than deep shrunk areas filled with bondo. With hammering you will probably end up with something that is smoothed with primer only and will look great from the inside of the trunk. Dont forget that those pannels will be visible from inside the trunk also. I like to make the inside of those old cars as pretty as the outside...
Shrinking might get you into alot of bondo. As you shriink one place there is no telling what will get pulled out of shape. You might just transfer the tincanning to another area that will become stressed by the shrunk area.
You can shrink with your mig to, simply weld a small spot and quench, repeat...then grind the welds off and bondo....yuck, defeats the purpose of putting new pannels in...
Just 2 more cents worth...
Serge
jcmeyer5
10-22-2006, 05:34 PM
Small update...
I looked over the panel again today. So that I could see better where the distortions were, I gave it a shot of el cheapo rattle can primer (dont worry, I am taking it off when it comes time to really do the bodywork). I DID find a crown in the metal over the wheel well. It has more curvature than the rest of the quarter panel. I dont know if this is my problem or not, but it does need fixed.
Another thing I realized... this panel is over 6 feet long, and aside from a very shallow wheel well (the wheel sits up inside, so the panel doesnt have the tall arch that other cars have), it is largely uninterrupted. So I can see where this thing isnt the firmest. What will also help me is that the gas filler neck on this side and, when installed, it virtually eliminated the flexing (the "center" of the flex area is right under the hole where this neck installs). I really think the problem is a reproduction panel in an area that is so large (and void of any structural support) that it likes to flex.
I played with it today... its gonna take some work... but it wouldnt be any fun if it didnt right? :)
I dont have access to the back of this section of the panel. It is too far inside the trunk, and the wheel well is in the way. I am guessing that I need to shrink the metal a bit, and since I cant get behind it for proper hammering, I use a shrink disc?
dave_demented
10-22-2006, 06:43 PM
i cant say im familiar with shrink disks, but my recent purchase of a uni-spotter skrink tip from len has been an amazing invesment... just put it wher eyou wanna shrink, zap, and your done
just my opininon
jcmeyer5
10-22-2006, 06:46 PM
If I had a stud welder, I would definitely give it a go. I am, however, not in a position yet to purchase a stud welder.
Although... how big of an area does it shrink?
dave_demented
10-22-2006, 06:50 PM
not that huge of one, like maybe 1/2inch wide, but its amazing what it can do, zap in a couple areas, tap it a little with a hammer and your done. i was using mine on a old 5 gallon drum i cut apart to shrink it and make it flat and strong. worked real nice
If I had a stud welder, I would definitely give it a go. I am, however, not in a position yet to purchase a stud welder.
Although... how big of an area does it shrink?
A stud welder with a shrink tip will shrink any size panel. I usually start in the center of the area and expand in a circle from the center out... zap, zap, zap and you're done. You could shrink a sheetmetal football field if you had to.
jcmeyer5
10-22-2006, 08:19 PM
Good point.
How small could you get the football field? :)
EDIT: What is the RIGHT method of shrinking in this instance? You guys seem to like ye ole stud welder. What are the drawbacks to a shrinking disc?
I haven't used the shrink disk much because it needs water. The stud welder can do an excellent job on your pulling and your shrinking, no water required. If you get the stud welder for pulling out dents and don't have a shrink tip it would cost you $8.50 for the tip.
jcmeyer5
10-22-2006, 09:13 PM
Yeah I saw. I think I like this method best... now to find a stud welder.
John Kelly
10-23-2006, 08:18 AM
There is a chance that any method of shrinking you choose might make the shallow or flatter portion of the panel next to the high spot floppy. The advantage of the stud puller in this instance is that you can pull that low or floppy part up to add a little rigidity. This is not the best way to put a slight crown in the metal because it is more of a pull than a true stretch, but you might be able to fudge it. If you are sure that you need to shrink the bulge and not raise a nearby low spot, I would use a shrinking disc because the shrink will be more gradual and accurate than any other method. It is possible to shrink a bulge with out any hammer and dolly work or any bondo this way, but not always. It sounds like you might want to use what I call a flow strip to really see where the panel needs recontouring. I show one in this album:
http://allshops.org/cgi-bin/community/communityalbums.cgi?action=openalbum&albumid=9980138836765
This tool allows you to stand back and see how the panel flows, as well as pick up tiny low spots. Sometimes shining a light at the right angle behind or below the strip helps.
Hi Len,
Water is not required when using a shrinking disc, it just speeds things up with the added advantage of making discrepancies in the metal easier to feel.
Edit: Len sells a stud welder, and he is our host, a good place to spend your money.
John www.ghiaspecialties.com
jcmeyer5
10-24-2006, 10:27 PM
Hi John. I saw your write-ups and videos on shrinking. Very nice.
I am certain that I have a bulge above the wheel well and not low spots on either side of the bulge. The panel is designed to be fairly flat.
The floppy part really doesnt appear to be "out of shape." It looks really good... just not very strong. Like I said, there is added strength when the gas filler neck is installed.
68-chevyman
10-24-2006, 11:03 PM
Just a stab I the dark but try pulling down on the center of the pinch weld with one hand and feeling with the other if the flat panal is better.
jcmeyer5
10-28-2006, 10:48 AM
Pinch weld... you mean around the wheel well?
68-chevyman
10-28-2006, 10:47 PM
Yep, directly under the problem area. I got to thinking when the Qt. was clamped (for welding) it may have caused the metal in the Qt. to bunch up insted of pulling the wheel house down like a Qt. should when its not so flat as your car is.
jcmeyer5
10-29-2006, 04:38 PM
Interesting...
Boy I wonder how I fix that?
68-chevyman
10-29-2006, 05:19 PM
Still looks like a shrink to me. If that is the problem, just helping you brainstorm.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.0 Copyright © 2013 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.