plan critique wanted

[Brian_B]

Hello everyone,

I recently purchased a 1956 ford f-100 and want to do the minor body work and paint. http://home.centurytel.net/brian_b/56/index2.htmI did a small amount years ago, but please don't hold that against me.

From reading on this forum (excellent source of information) it seems things have changed a little over the last 10 years (or more). My intention was to sand blast each panel to remove the 50 years of paint (no apparent rust). Len shows a method to sand it off (which I like). http://www.autobodystore.com/strip_&_paint.htm

He sells the makita, but I can't justify the cost for one vehicle. He also sells the ATD http://autobodystore.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=atd10511&Category_Code= which I can justify.

The classroom shows to use picklex-20 to prevent flash rust. I will be doing on panel at a time Sand/epoxy prime/body work/high build prime--whole vehicle over several months probably, will this step be necessary?

Do I have to buy the 8" "ferro" pad as well or will the 7" hook and loop that comes with the ATD machine be fine?


I guess an epoxy primer is the next step. Then minor body work (I used to prefer evercoat products-I see len sells them still). Then high build primer. Of course lots of sanding and then BC/CC.

Again, its been years since I painted anything. I have a devilbiss JGA gun I used to use for BC/CC. I assume that will still be ok. I had a no name gun I used for primer (never heard of epoxy back then), so I will need to check the tip size and compare it to what the paint says?

Another thing is the video/DVD, it seems like a good idea for anyone, but is it closed captioned? Without that it won't do me a lot of good.

I have most of the body working tools and equipment that will be needed (although its all "old school"). Besides the sander and the usual supplies (sandpaper, tape, etc.) are there any surprises I need to know about?

Sorry for the long post, but I want to get some sort of plan of attack going before I start tanking the truck apart. I need to save up the cash for the tools and supplies needed.

Thanks in advance everyone,
Brian

[PJM]

Hi Brian-

Im gonna take a crack at atleast some of your questions. Hopefully i can help.

Yes you can sand blast each panel...HOWEVER, you can warp your panels badly without knowing until the later stages which in the long run will cost more in time and money. It also depends on what kind of final product you are trying to achieve.

The makita is the high end of the two machines, both will do the job just fine, the bonus here is that at the end of your project they can be used to polish the paint. Len will be able to get you what you need to make the ATD work.

If you are planning on doing one panel at a time then i dont think the picklex-20 is necessary, other members will be able to adivise as i have never used it.

Yes, epoxy should be used to protect the metal. Where body work is needed grind that area to metal with 36-80 grit apply filler, block, etc etc. Evercoat products are fine, they work very well.

Your Devilbiss JGA, i cant comment on, your no name gun for primer is fine for spraying primer, however i wouldnt use it for top coats. Len and others will be able to advise you on spray guns as i have only sprayed with a SATA and Sagola.

I have the VHS copy from years ago, i dont think it is closed captioned, Len might have that option now, im sure he will chime in and answer.

If by "old school" you meen hammers and dollies etc, there might be some new ones but i wouldn't be worried about that. I think most of the new equipment for the most part is out of the price range of the DIY that only does a project or two a year.

Good luck on your project, keep us updated.

HTH

Paul

[Len]

The Ferro pad is still needed because the pad that comes with the Makita or the ATD buffers are for attaching buffing pads not for attaching sandpaper.

The big difference between the ATD (inexpensive) buffer and the Makita is the "automatic speed control" on the Makita. When the sandpaper or buffing pad is pressed against the surface it will not slow down when the machine has automatic speed control. What this really means is that the less expensive machine will need to have the speed increased in order to have enough power and speed to remove paint as you press against the surface. This can get a little tricky but it can be done without doing any damage if you're careful.

As long as the metal isn't left for more than a couple days you can get away without using the Picklex but if you strip it then leave it for weeks at a time it will start to rust (in most environments) unless it's protected.

Sorry, no closed captioning on the Spray Painting 101 Video but next time I make a video I will take that into consideration as well as Spanish translation.

If the JGA worked with bc/cc before it will probably work again but they are much more difficult to control than the newer model spray guns.

Most of the "old school" equipment will work, it's just a little more difficult to get the best possible results using old or outdated tools but they will work. IE. using a decent HVLP or Compliant spray gun will help you generate more consistent results. Older guns tend to generate more runs and dry spots because they use a higher pressure at the air cap which makes the result more hit and miss.

[Brian_B]

Ok...thanks guys. I do not intend to leave a panel bare at all. I hope to shoot the epoxy as soon as I get it all cleaned up. I will set up a small "paint booth" or clean room in the garage before I start sanding.

I used to paint a whole car the factory color after body repairs, so taking one apart and doing each panel is new to me. I will probably ask a lot of dumb questions as I go along. This forum is great to just sit and read though. I have been reading as I have time for the last couple of weeks.

I knew about removing it before any filler is used. The truck is really not bad at all. There is no visible rust, but you never know until you get it apart. I have a mig and that type of equipment (if needed).

It has layers of very thick paint is the problem. I guess its been sprayed a few times onver the last 49 years. I just want to start over with a clean slate. The previous owner would see a scratch or chip and go nuts with the red primer (brush). It all over the truck. The whole roof is covered too. :rolleyes:

There are 3 small places that have filler now (that I can see). There has to be more, but it was done well.

I will order the pad as well when I get the money to get started on this. I did not understand that from my reading. I have a small buffer (not heavy enough to sand at all), that we used for buffing. So I will have two.

The JGA gun is not the best (It was not even back then), but its was more than sufficient for what I did. This truck is a classic, but it will not be a show truck or a trailer queen. Its a driver. Its all street legal and I have been driving it. :D

The JGA easy to use and consistent? No...but its what I have. If it works fair (it used to), its what I will use. I am not expecing perfect results. It will look a lot better than it does now. (IE...all one color).

Yeah...most of the tech type videos are not captioned.:( Its a rather expensive process from what I understand. Do you know of any good ones that are captioned? I have not looked yet. I know thats not promoting your business, but I need to find something I can "hear" (read) too.

I will try to get into town and talk to my old paint supplier as soon as I can. I used to use dupont brand (nason I think???). Major opinions against the brand? I have not used PPG, but there is a shop in town that sells it as well.

Thanks again for the advice and the forum. This is a great resource for us novices.

Brian

[Phil V]

Brian, PJM offered some excellent advice, and of course Len did also. I can comment on the the JGA gun you have. That gun is by far the best all around spray gun ever made, particularily for spraying synthetic enamel, acrylic enamel and lacquer. It will also do an excellent job with the newer basecoats. BUT the original air cap that came on that gun (either a # 40 or a #80) is poorly suited for spraying acrylic urethane single stage color or clearcoats. Those air caps can't properly atomize the newer urethane topcoat paints so like Len suggested - you can expect runs and dry spots using the JGA with the old air caps. The needle and fluid tip are fine, just the air cap does a poor job with urethane top coats. Devilbiss did come out with an upgraded air cap that has the Devilbiss number of #9000 air cap. That cap was designed to work with the urethane topcoat paints. I still used my old JGA with the 9000 air cap for most jobs that don't include a full paint. For full paints I use my Iwata LPH400. To upgrade your JGA by buying the #9000 air cap its going to cost you close to $70 for just the new air cap. In all honesty a cheapo Harbor Freight gravity feed HVLP gun will do a better job than the old JGA - WITH THE ORIGINAL AIR CAP. The JGA with the #9000 air cap will do a better job than all the Asian import Sata NR-92 copies.(which about 90% of the Asian import gravity feed HVLP guns are modeled after).

I was about to say that PPG products are more user friendly than Dupont/Nason but the truth is they are ALL user abusive (hehehe). I say that after using those and most other paint products professionally for 35 years.

One other point - If you take your truck apart and do one panel at a time, then you need to "cut in" those redone parts before you re-install them. But "cut in" I mean if you re-do say a front fender and its in primer ready to install then you need to spray the inside surfaces of that fender with the color and clear that you plan to use when you spray the whole truck at one time.

[Brian_B]

That is interesting to know about the gun. I think it has the original cap on it. I will have to check. All my equipment is put away in a cabinet.

I used it on acrylic enamel a lot and one lacquer paint job (was not fond of that!). I have sprayed several that were base/clear using it. I have no idea what kind of paints there were though. I am not familiar with all the paint or gun termanology you used (yet), but I am trying to learn. What I know (sort of know) is old knowledge and termanology. Thats pretty amazing if the $40 HF gun (43430-8VGA) will do as well as the JGA used to on the older paints. That may be an inexpensive option.

So one brand of paint is not a preffered for someone like me? I can get either one here locally. The dupont/nason is just what several people I knew back then used. It easier to get because of store hours too. The store that sells PPG is only open during the day and not at all on Satudays.

The "cutting in" is an excellent point. I had not thought that far into the plan yet. I am so glad that pros are around to help on the internet. Information was a lot harder to find the last time I was messing with paint.

Thanks,
Brian

[Len]

The newer "hardened" paint materials contain isocyanates that are VERY toxic to breath. A supplied air breathing system is highly recommended when you spray these urethane-type materials. Funny but they are not nearly as harmful to the environment as the older materials but they are very harmful to you at the time they are being sprayed. Take this warning seriously.:eek:

[Brian_B]

Hi again,

I believe you. Things like this are why I am asking lots of questions first. The "hardened" paints are the base and clear erethanes (guessing)? The epoxy and high build primers are ok with my normal masks we used to use (I need new filters obviously)?

I was just looking in the "store" for the supplied breathing systems. The cheap ones are nearly $400. :eek:

Is there a special mask or something else that will be sufficient for a one time job? I can't justify the makita sander, much less one of those. By the time I pay for all the "modern" equipment, I can't repair the truck. :(

If I have to have one...I sincerely hope they can be rented for a few days at a time. I guess I will find out when I get to that point.

I like the older ways. I think.

Thanks again,
Brian

EDIT: This has me a little scared, so I am reading on the dupont site. Here is part of what it says under the nason clears MSDS



Respiratory:
Do not breathe vapors or mists. Wear a properly fitted air-purifying
respirator with organic vapor cartridges (NIOSH approved TC-23C) and
particulate filter (NIOSH TC-84A) during application and until all vapors
and spray mists are exhausted. In confined spaces, or in situations where
continuous spray operations are typical, or if proper air-purifying
respirator fit is not possible, wear a positive pressure, supplied-air
respirator (NIOSH TC-19C). In all cases, follow respirator manufacturer s
directions for respirator use. Do not permit anyone without protection in
the painting area.

It goes on to list gloves, coveralls, and goggles or course. I assume they mean that a proper respirator with the cartridges and filter are acceptable? Mine is a 3M, but its probably doesn't meet those requirements. Will have to check that as well.

[Len]

Cartridge masks work when everything is perfect. First you need a proper fit, any small leak in a toxic environment is dangerous. You need a WELL VENTILATED room because the mask will load up quickly if there is a lot of overspray in the air and a coating on the pre-filter can cause the mask to leak. Most cartridge masks have a short life span and the less expensive ones are usually only recommended for 8 hours after the package is opened not 8 hours of use. The better masks ($60+) can last as long as 40 hours after the package is opened. You should purchase at least one extra set of cartridges for the expensive masks or a couple of the less expensive masks so that you have less tendency to go beyond the limits of their protection.

If you don't protect yourself properly I would recommend that you farm out the spraying part of your project.

[Brian_B]

Hmm....a lot of things to think about. I just can't see being able to afford the supplied system for a one time use. It will be another 10 years before I would need it again (if ever). Farming it out would cost even more than that (if I could even get someone to do that here).

Unless you (and the other members) have any other ideas I will have to try to get the proper mask. I don't see much other choice. I can't kill myself over this.

None of this will even start until warm weather, so I have some time for research, but this is getting expensive fast. :(

[Len]

Keep an eye on eBay for used breathing systems. The least expensive one I sell is the Neoterik system pictured below $325.


http://autobodystore.net/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/Neoterikmc172.jpg

Neoterik Link (http://autobodystore.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=NA)

[49willard]

Cartridge masks work when everything is perfect. First you need a proper fit, any small leak in a toxic environment is dangerous. You need a WELL VENTILATED room because the mask will load up quickly if there is a lot of overspray in the air and a coating on the pre-filter can cause the mask to leak. Most cartridge masks have a short life span and the less expensive ones are usually only recommended for 8 hours after the package is opened not 8 hours of use. The better masks ($60+) can last as long as 40 hours after the package is opened. You should purchase at least one extra set of cartridges for the expensive masks or a couple of the less expensive masks so that you have less tendency to go beyond the limits of their protection.

If you don't protect yourself properly I would recommend that you farm out the spraying part of your project.

I am in a similar situation as Brian B. I am going to be painting with the newer paints for the first time. I have never shot the Urethanes single or 2 stage. I need to improve my mask situation. I have a 3m respirator. I for one was not aware that the cartridges had a "shelf life" of hours. I have been thinking about a supplied air system, however two people that I talked to bought them and no longer use them due to the two hose problem. They are both using the pump on the belt with a hood setup. However doesn't that have the same short "shelf life" problem? Recommendations anyone?

[Len]

I agree that dragging two hoses around can be a hassle but a belt worn pump also has it's problems. For one thing you're still breathing the air in the room so even though it's filtered you're not getting the advantage of outside air being pumped to your face. Some of these systems can be about the same amount of hassle as an extra hose and tying the hoses together helps stop most tangling problems.

I've had one breathing system manufacturer tell me that they are making the belt worn pump to sidestep the positive pressure laws and they don't really recommend them for safe breathing.

I would say that the belt worn pump is probably fine in a good down draft booth where overspray is not much of an issue but in an environment with a lot of overspray in the air you could have problems.

There are a lot of variables that need consideration in the application of paint and the hoses on the floor is one of them. I compensate for the hoses by laying them out before I start so that they follow me smoothly then I make sure that they are repositioned before each coat of paint. If you just drag out the hose and start spraying coat after coat you'll end up aggravated and cussing the hoses.

[Brian_B]

Thanks Len,

I will keep my eyes open for a used one or perhaps a rental supplied air system when it comes time to actually paint it. I only know of two real booths in this area and they at new car dealers. I don't think they will rent them out. Maybe I will be fortunate and can afford a new supplied air system by then. :p

In the mean time there is plenty of work I can do. I just need to get started.

Brian

[fixdent]

Hi Brian...

Your JGA will spray ok. But as Phil said, get the #9000 air cap. It will atomize the clear better.

I had one painter that was adament about using the JGA 903 with the #43 cap. He could paint ok. But he was very suseptable (sp) to runs. When he left, and I had to take over the painting (again), I used my #9000 tip, and did not have *that* much of a problem with runs.

I later bought my Devilbiss 'Plus' gun, and it is the best gun I have ever used....(always used the JGA before that).

Dupont ChomaPremier paints and Clear coats are very good. Best paint I have ever used. No shrinking etc. Polishes very nicely.

The Nason (Dupont) Select clears also lay down nice, and are about 1/3 the price of ChromaPremier. I use it on my economy paints. Also buffs out nice.

Make sure you give Lens 'True Finish' polish and pads VERY high consideration when you want to do your buffing and polishing.


--
Gordon

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