View Full Version : Are all hardeners the same?

04-17-2011, 09:07 AM
Got some MP182 Omni 2K yesterday, and they gave me MP168 hardener. The tech sheet for 182 says to use MP164 or 165 hardener. The 168 they gave me says for use with top coats.

Can I use the 168, or do i need to get the 164/165? I wanted to use it today and of course they are closed on sundays.


04-17-2011, 11:11 AM
There is a CHANCE that the one you got is simply a slower one for gloss or something like that. But in my world there is NO WAY I would use it unless I knew for a fact from an inside source at PPG. What the tech sheet says is what I would use PERIOD.
It may have a different amount of Isos in it so the mixing ratio would be different, it may be completely different, we really don't know. I wouldn't even think of it if I were you.


04-17-2011, 11:14 AM
Thanks Brian, that is what I was thinking. Was hoping to get this done today, but will postpone another week.

04-17-2011, 11:14 AM
Rules, Rules RULES.....
By Brian Martin

Rules, rules, rules, so many rules. Use this don’t use that. Sand this, don’t sand that. These companies must think we are stupid right? They tell us to buy their products only. Of course they do, so they can make money off of us, right?

That is how many people feel. They mix and match products thinking they can out smart the chemists that created the product!

The manufacture spent hundreds of thousands of dollars, possibly even millions developing the product. They did EVERYTHING possible to make it perform it’s best. Heck, if they found it worked better if you painted it while standing on your head, THAT would be in the tech sheet!

Did you know that most of these products you use have a lifetime warranty? That’s right the manufacture will stand behind their primers, paints, and clears for your LIFETIME. Now, as a DIYer you can’t have this warranty. What makes the difference between the warranty YOU have (usually none) and the lifetime warranty a shop may have? The training, that’s what. The manufacture has classes for the painters to go to. He then takes a test, if he passes, the manufacture knows that he understands the procedures and proper product choice. The manufacture has learned that it is likely the painter will use the product properly and it will perform as expected. The manufacture puts hundreds of millions of dollars on the line with this warranty. They know they can, if the product is used EXACTLY as they have instructed on the tech sheet.

I have always been the kind of guy to follow instructions. Even before I had the training I used the products exactly as I was told to. I am sure this accounts for the very few failures I have had in the 28 plus years I have been doing this work.

Five of those 28 years I was a paint rep. If there is one singular thing I came away from that job with it would be importance of following the recommendations. As a rep I visited hundreds, possibly thousands of shops. These shops were in every shape and size. From one with seven frame machines and five paint booths doing a million dollars of business a month, to a one man shop with two stalls.

Among these shops there was a very distinct pattern, the ones who went to tech school, had only ONE brand of product on the shelves, and REFERRED to the tech sheets, had fewer problems. Most of these shops had NO problems, EVER.

They were open to hear about new products and ready to learn about how to make any product or tool perform better. Oh yeah, and they made more money.

Then, there was the “dark side”. These were the shops that would buy any product, any brand, just to save a dollar. Their shelves were covered with so many labels, it looked like the cans of soda and beer in a Quikie Mart cooler.
If, and I mean a BIG if, you could get them to a tech class, they were disruptive and later told me how they “could have taught that class”. They were quick to tell you how smart they were and how the paint company didn’t know jack about the “real world”. These shops took up about 99% of my trouble shooting time. They didn’t have little “how can I get this primer to dry faster”? sort of problems. They had TOTAL catastrophic failures! I was the first one they called because we must have put out a “bad batch” of product.

I tell you this only so you can understand where I get this passion that I have for using products properly. It was like watching a basketball came where one of the teams were wearing wet jeans and cowboy boots! After a while you wouldn’t even have to watch, you would know what the outcome was going to be.

Most product data sheets can be read in a few minutes. They are available on line, as well as in the store where you bought the products or even many are available on “Fax Back” right over your phone.

Get proper mixing containers. Be sure the solvents used match temperatures of the booth. Double check to be sure you have ALL the components (and enough of them) BEFORE you start so you don’t find yourself tempted to be “creative”.

The three most important things and the most common cause of failures are as follows:
1. Mix the proper components accurately .
2. Use the correct solvent for the temperature.

All this info is on the product data sheets, use them.

Painting can be difficult, there are things that are quite honestly out of your control. So, why not do EVERYTHING that IS in your control correctly.

04-17-2011, 12:13 PM
Thanks for the GREAT reply re: painting. I'm the furthest thing from a pro painter so a number
of the things you brought up make a whole lot of sense.
The next time I think about doing something "Creative" paint mixing wise, I WILL remember your reply! Thanks, Bob L.

04-17-2011, 12:39 PM
You are a lot smarter than a lot of "pros" out there!


04-17-2011, 05:11 PM
Being creative is fine as long as it is context. I have painted many beaters with whatever was on the self. But, if I paint a Z06 vette, you better believe that the tech is followed religiously. I do have one advantage that most don't have. I have a cousin who is a high level PPG rep and he tells me things that the PPG legal dept wouldn't let normal Techs divulge. It is helpful in expressing my "creativity". LOL

04-17-2011, 07:28 PM
Got some MP182 Omni 2K yesterday, and they gave me MP168 hardener. The tech sheet for 182 says to use MP164 or 165 hardener. The 168 they gave me says for use with top coats.

Can I use the 168, or do i need to get the 164/165? I wanted to use it today and of course they are closed on sundays.


I don't know the answer to this question but if I were faced with it I might reversed the question and look up the hardener and find out what it's used for. If the top coat materials are not mentioned specifically you might find that they are similar to those you have.