Chevy pick up restoration

[tech69]

I should have gotten more pics of this white one in the repair process but it's just bodywork and prime and block once. We specialize in these pickups.
http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/sacsupreme/P1040713.jpg
http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/sacsupreme/P1040711.jpg
http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/sacsupreme/P1040700.jpg






I'm currently doing another one and it's an out of stater and has to be perfect. It's going red. I'll take some pics before we prime it and after paint and will post in this thread.

[Len]

Did you have much rust damage? Over headlamps or door bottoms or cab corners?

[tech69]

Did you have much rust damage? Over headlamps or door bottoms or cab corners?

cab corners and an after market door due to rust. Common on those I see. Headlamp area was fine. The one I'm working on now had both cab rear corners replaced and welded into place with being welded in wrong and it enlarged the door gap so I gotta run a bead down the door

Those fricken cab corners are a pain to work with filler, especially the top section!

[another2centsworth]

try welding 1/4" square stock on the door edges to tighten the gap up.

[tech69]

it's just a driver resto. We did some welding for this one though.

http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/sacsupreme/P1040726.jpg

this back was mangled. Lots of metal work just to get it manageable.
http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/sacsupreme/P1040725.jpg

http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/sacsupreme/P1040732.jpg

This door needed a little work after primer. should be good next round.

http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/sacsupreme/P1040731.jpg



All in all I learned for the 1955 the UPPER rear cab end is a b*%&! A thin layer of epoxy is not enough to block on it and determine where the body line is cause it's so round as opposed to the door that butts up to it. You have to mud/and/or primer it and block on it before you prime the whole cab n doors to get a good read. Too many dull non defined bodylines and different angles going on to get a good look at it with filler. It needs primer on it to really tell what's going on with it.

This was the first 55 I've done in bare metal and so the upper rear cab end got me and I didn't like what it looked like in primer and it bothered me last night. Without hesitation today I went straight for that cab end and got both sides looking really sharp and matching the door body lines. I'll post a pic of that and I'll take it tomorrow. I bet it'll look kind of cool cause the pic shows clearly what's involved...tape! Cause you can see the guidecoat traces on edges which will make a cool pic and good to show what's involved with those buggy bastards.

[MARTINSR]

The fit and finish you got out of those doors looks TOP KNOTCH! They fit like CRAP when new, you did a fine job on them.

Brian

[another2centsworth]

nice primer what did ya use?

[tech69]

The fit and finish you got out of those doors looks TOP KNOTCH! They fit like CRAP when new, you did a fine job on them.

Brian

Thanks Martin. We had to tack onto the door as well. The other side has an after market door and it was a horrible fit on the onset. It had perfectly working door hinges yet had to be raised overly high like we were compensating for something.

[tech69]

nice primer what did ya use?

featherfill. They have a 1.7 maxum that doesn't load it up like I want but makes for a nice even finish if that counts for anything at that point. :) I personally would have used a 2k for the second round(or last round) but he says it's gonna be a trailer queen anyways.

[tech69]

when doing this truck I think it's important to spot prime the upper ends first or after filler, block, and then prime the whole truck. It took me by surprise but I like the challenge of these few bodylines in multiple hard angles to deal with that don't match the rest of the bodylines(cab to door bodyline). It means you must make them match the doors but finding the right area to do that is a b#&@! I think it's important to let the metal reveal itself to tell you where your line will be taped. Trying to figure it out by eye isn't good enough cause it's not clearly defined at first. So til that's revealed there's no need for tape but to run your block in the appropriate direction to induce that situation while not taking things out of shape but rather molding it into what it will become. Once you know where that body line should be you sharpen it up with tape and line up your door to that line. Just thought I'd share my take on this area cause it's really the only hard part about this car other than the hassle of dealing with the rear fenders.


Second round of primer. I love attacking the bodylines first. The bodylines are actually off by the slightest to the door but that's cause I didn't want to cheat it on the cab corner but only adorn it by sharpening it up where it told me where the line should be. It's close enough though just not perfect.

http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/sacsupreme/P1040743.jpg

I usually start with this side, then switch my tape to the other side so I can sand the inner side. Then I do the lower part of the cab corner by switching sides of the tape for the horizontal bodyline that matches the door. Last I get a soft block and 600 and buffer the sharp edges til the guide coat is gone. The bodyline going from up to down doesn't have to be sharp and it's optional but they like em sharp so that's what I did.
http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/sacsupreme/P1040755.jpg
http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/sacsupreme/P1040751.jpg

[tech69]

the truck is painted and waiting for the rolling chassis. The cab corners look awesome as well as the rest of the truck. I've been working on my cutting and buffing and now can cutt it flat edge to edge with little swirls. Thanks to this site I was able to experiment a little and totally better myself. I now sand with the bodylines, am now sanding out ALL the scratches, and tape just the very edge and everything works out perfect. I'll take some pics when we get around to sanding and buffing and have it together. Here's a nice pic though and amazing how the color concept is. No wonder I don't see many people doing the factory paint inside...look how much money that can potentially cost!

http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/sacsupreme/P1040860.jpg

[tech69]

Here's the cab corners. If you compare the sharpness of this cab corner with an original it's easily to see it matches the overall bodylines better. I'll post more when it's buffed out. We're still waiting on the chassis.

http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/sacsupreme/P1050038.jpg

http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/sacsupreme/P1050033.jpg

http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/sacsupreme/P1050040.jpg

[tech69]

no more dents!
http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/sacsupreme/P1050054.jpg

mirror finish
http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/sacsupreme/P1050052.jpg

[All Dry]

I think it looks great. Mike

[icrman]

Are the interior colors factory stock? If so what are they? Did you use grey or silver above the floor? Also what is the top of the dash painted with? Factory uses a textured paint, anyone know what it is?

[tech69]

It's factory interior color.The dash is black and textured. We used undercoating. I think the colors are gun metal grey and a silver. They used single stage. The grey is mainly the floor and silver above. The inside of the cab looks really good.

[icrman]

I would like some numbers for the paint. And how did you get the texture on the top of the dash? It looks real good in the pics.

[tech69]

we used undercoating for the dash. I'll find out about the paint.

I thought this would make for a cool pic.
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x463/embsanch/P1050160.jpg

[tech69]

These pics don't even show you the half of this cab. It is HAMMERED and I'm just speaking on the welding. I've been eyeing it for a couple days here and there and today put a good hour on it since the welder was out and real close to it. After I get done with the Hudson bodywork I will get this thing done. The guy was offered a better cab for cheap but he wants the original. When you see all the repairs I do to it you're gonna ask yourself why and the hell did he try to polish that turd.

The easy stuff...
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x463/embsanch/P1050189.jpg

I was excited to break out my new 5/16th's rotabroach bits for these cab mounts. They're pretty hammered. Whatever caused this damage also broke the two top spot welds.
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x463/embsanch/P1050190.jpg

Good to know we have an extra cab to swipe some patches from cause although I've recently learned how to hammer form these lines I'd rather not and spare me some time
elsewhere an unforeseen problem WILL occur.

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x463/embsanch/P1050191.jpg

Boss says we'll probably fiberglass this one but that will probably depend on how long this cab takes.
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x463/embsanch/P1050192.jpg

[tech69]

This pillar looks interesting. We have the pocket patches for the hinges but it looks like swiss cheese in there. I have to get a real close look at this but from a glance looks like the outer pillar has to come off temporarily to fix what's behind it, then put back on, and then weld in the pocket after it's screwed in and door fits. There's also a couple other rust spots I'll need to address in this pic
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x463/embsanch/P1050193.jpg

Just a bunch of spot welds to cut and of course fitting the door to them. Never did one before but it looks easy enough.
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x463/embsanch/P1050194.jpg

[tech69]

looks like something you'd see in the Iraqi desert.
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x463/embsanch/P1050199.jpg

Frankencab
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x463/embsanch/P1050203.jpg

I will most likely have to recut that top line after I set the other piece in and scribe a cut line. I made a mistake of flanging this so now I have to cut into another spot weld cause the space between the spot weld isn't enough for the edge and a new flange to be flanged. Maybe I'll get lucky with my cut line I currently have. Who knows? That was a good lesson
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x463/embsanch/P1050200.jpg

there was lots of these sized holes everywhere on the cab. I developed a quick way for the tools I have. I first find a washer that matches, then scribe that onto metal. I then cut it into a square with some snips, leaving the corners to be rounded with a die grinder. Works fast. I see with the one on the right I need to plow right over the initial tacks when hot. I stopped at it and it's noticeable. The one on the left I welded thru it on the left side. The left and right side on the right one show that I stopped at the tack.
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x463/embsanch/P1050202-1.jpg

[MARTINSR]

we used undercoating for the dash. I'll find out about the paint.

I thought this would make for a cool pic.
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x463/embsanch/P1050160.jpg

That IS a cool picture, I like it.

Brian

[tech69]

That IS a cool picture, I like it.

Brian

My tool box is behind the red truck and I was rushing along getting a tool and turned around and pretty much saw that same view as the camera and grabbed my camera. :D

[tech69]

Here's what's on the menu tomorrow. I can't wait! I still have a few holes to weld up and then it's patch panel time! The fender also needs a lower patch panel and support. I threw a few tacks on the supports and first thing in the morning I'm going to mount it to make sure the welded on nut lines up. If it's ok I'll complete the welding after I cut off the fender bottom, then open butt weld on the patch. Alot of work for this thing.
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x463/embsanch/P1050258.jpg

[tech69]

These were fun to do. Weird though to get the right angle. Seems like no matter what I did the edges were sunk in, maybe it was the support. The setting for the welder are the same I use for plug welds so I'm kind of disappointed the welds didn't disappear when grounded down but think that's the angle. Still looks great and only a little bondo will be needed. To get the wheel lip lined up I had to pull the fold over flange away from the support so that was fun hammering the flange over. Didn't think there was another option. In the end it won't be detectable.
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x463/embsanch/P1050262.jpg
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x463/embsanch/P1050263.jpg

[tech69]

The cowl is nearly done.
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x463/embsanch/P1050271.jpg

This took a good 30 minutes just fabricating. Little bugger was hard to get lined up right but it's good now and will only need a super tight skim coat.
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x463/embsanch/P1050269.jpg

The outer and inner hinge pockets. The inner is a pain to cut out and if you have rust on your inner it's hard to gain access to patch it up. Due to the cracks, rust, and room , I decided to replace the whole thing. You also have to grind off a few edges here and there to get the aftermarket inner pocket to fit but will weld in with just a few plugs. The outer isn't so much of a pain at all.
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x463/embsanch/P1050266.jpg

This one is a pain, or shall I say the way I decided to tackle it made it a pain. On the other side I think I'll try a less evasive way but it looks like there may be rust behind the hinge pillar like on this one. I scribed lines where the captive nuts are and also measured from the bodyline on the pillar to get my up and down specs and the wall on the step to get my side to side specs. Monday I weld it in. I'm hoping a measurement is enough cause I'd like to not mount the door. Anyhow, if anyone has done these for a 58-59 Chevy I'd love some tips!
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x463/embsanch/P1050275.jpg

[icrman]

Looks good. What size spot weld cutter do you use? All I can find is 3/8. Is that the right size?
Curious what the cleco's go into to hold that outer front corner on? Did you just over lap it?
I haven't done mine yet, but I have an idea for support and measurement system.
I'm one that doesn't want to weld a bunch or braciing etc. It would be a bolt in jig arrangement.
So are you going to replace the inner running boards? On mine I'm looking and all corners, running boards and passenger side floor.

I would like to know how much you guys are charging to do those repairs? Also are the holes that have been welded in the fire wall just ones that someone added, or are you welding up the factory holes too? Please keep the info and pictures comming, I'll be doing this same thing soon.
Have you ever used magnets to hold the parts into position rather than screws or those cleco's???

Also on that one floor piece it looks like it doesn't have the same size lip the stock one does??
After the plug welds to the step how do you make it look like a factory spot weld? I'm going for as close to factory stock look as I can get.
Thanks

[Len]

Tech69 won't be posting anymore. He abused his privileges by registering as several different members which included surfin and mobilemike so he won't be around for a while.

[rancheroo]

Len, I really don't know any of the history, but to the ignorant & casual reader it seemed that tech posted a lot of good stuff. He's obviously learning & is excited when he comes across something that works. If (IF) all he's done is created a cocuple of different id's then give the buck a break.

If I told you that I was also known as Mooch, would you go ahead & ban me too (mooch that is)?

Rick

[Len]

Len, I really don't know any of the history, but to the ignorant & casual reader it seemed that tech posted a lot of good stuff. He's obviously learning & is excited when he comes across something that works. If (IF) all he's done is created a cocuple of different id's then give the buck a break.

If I told you that I was also known as Mooch, would you go ahead & ban me too (mooch that is)?

Rick

Here's a little history Rick.
Tech69 is probably the third or fourth membership for this guy. In his earlier lives he came on and adds to the car forums but also went into the other forums and became quite disrespectful of other members. He was warned several times before he was banned as one of his other identities. He then came back as tech69 because I didn't ban his IP address but that soon became more of the same and he got banned again. Then, after he promised to behave himself, I allowed him to come back into the auto body forums but removed his permission to post in the Break Room and he posted regularly for quite a while until recently when I checked his IP because of a pattern of behavior that is now familiar and found it to match other similar posts (mobilemike) in the Break Room. Again he asked to be reinstated and I did it then I found another matching IP address (surfin) which was finially the straw that broke the camel's back. And I banned all his personas as well as his IP address.

I may allow him to post again because now, with the ability to ban his IP, I can stop him from adding memberships from his computer but he'll have to wait until I can get past his disrespect.

[icrman]

I'm not a computer wis but, IP's can be changed, and also proxys can be used too. All he has to do is contact his ISP and ask to change the IP. I'm for him staying here he likes the nice trucks and seems to know his stuff, and does some good posts, and some nice work too.
Not many others here posting nice pictures of these trucks and doing patch panels etc.

[tech69]

Looks good. What size spot weld cutter do you use? All I can find is 3/8. Is that the right size?
Curious what the cleco's go into to hold that outer front corner on? Did you just over lap it?
I haven't done mine yet, but I have an idea for support and measurement system.
I'm one that doesn't want to weld a bunch or braciing etc. It would be a bolt in jig arrangement.
So are you going to replace the inner running boards? On mine I'm looking and all corners, running boards and passenger side floor.

I would like to know how much you guys are charging to do those repairs? Also are the holes that have been welded in the fire wall just ones that someone added, or are you welding up the factory holes too? Please keep the info and pictures comming, I'll be doing this same thing soon.
Have you ever used magnets to hold the parts into position rather than screws or those cleco's???

Also on that one floor piece it looks like it doesn't have the same size lip the stock one does??
After the plug welds to the step how do you make it look like a factory spot weld? I'm going for as close to factory stock look as I can get.
Thanks

I like to use a 5/16" bit cause they are easier to plug and a good plug of that size is still more stronger than a spot weld. Sometimes you have no choice but to go 3/8".

The cleckos are going into a lapped flange. They are great but don't pull nearly
as tight as screws. They have their place but they don't by any means replace
screws alltogether.

I already swapped out the step/rocker combo. If you're about to do one and it's on a roaster I'd suggest cutting out your spot welds so you're plug welding the back side for most of your plug welds. Less clean up where it's for all to see.

We charge about $50 labor rate. We get lots of work due to it.

I think the holes were added. On a lunch break I counted over 50 just in the cab and firewall.

Never used magnets to hold parts but can imagine it does a decent job. I used tape, copper magnets, screws, cleckos, and whatever lines stuff up quickly to tack.

The plug welds into the floor should be plugged from the outside. Getting good factory plug welds is a matter of perfect settings, technique, prep, and how tight the panels are together.


To get the factory spot weld look on supports or something like that I just leave the weld as is. If it's for jambs or something I grind it down a little til your left with remnants of the outline.
So with that said, as long as the weld is clean it doesn't have to be perfect. As long as you get a solid plug that's round it will look good when you grind it down and will look just like resistant spot welds. The closest I've gotten to really good ones without grinding requires the wire speed to be slowed down a tad so the sizzle has a slight pause. When you do plugs like that you question the sound but when it's done you can see great penetration and a flush finish. Thing is, it's real finicky at that setting and not consistent so I don't go for that sound. I go for a more thorough sizzle sound but on the slow side of the spectrum for better penetration. Keeping your tip close to the work will help too. I also don't just set it for sound, I set it for penetration, then sound cause you can get the right sizzle sound at the wrong setting and extreme heat is key for a good plug.

[tech69]

since the last time I posted up my progress I've gotten a considerable amount of work done.

L/R inner cab corners. These are no fun.
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x463/embsanch/P1050278.jpg

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x463/embsanch/P1050284.jpg

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x463/embsanch/P1050293.jpg

I'll get the other side of the levour on Monday. I would have cut it all out
but it will look better this way and it's solid metal.
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x463/embsanch/P1050310.jpg

[tech69]

these are easy if you do it a certain way. You first have to make sure your flange is away from the bodyline so it's more flush in that area.. You also have to bend down the flange a little in that area. You then line it up to your jamb and use a self tapping screw on the jamb. Then you use the bulk of your screws leading up to the bodyline keeping it tight. Once it's tight to the bodyline it wraps around the cab corner and doesn't require many more screws.

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x463/embsanch/P1050297.jpg

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x463/embsanch/P1050298.jpg

Everything lines up well but there's one problem. I think I may need to slightly bend the flanged
area down EVERYWHERE to make it more flush. If I was able to do that here this would
be 10x better. I'll focus on that when I do the left cab corner.

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x463/embsanch/P1050309.jpg

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x463/embsanch/P1050299-1.jpg

[rancheroo]

Tech, first let me say that I'm a fan. I wish you lived next door to me so we could learn together & make stuff right. I love cutting, bending and welding, but at 53 I'm an amature learning as I go.

All that said, quit showing your ass & pissing folks off. I'll miss you (so will lots of others) if you get gone from here. I like how you photograph everything & explain what you did right or wrong, so don't screw it up for the rest of us.

Keep taking pictures & posting...Especially of that Mustang. Chevy trucks are OK, but after all, they're only Chevy trucks.

Your advocate, Rick

[tech69]

Thanks a lot! I love taking pics. As long as it's a classic car and not a modern one and there's something beyond a couple hours of bodywork, I'll always take pics. This is the best board in the biz and I'd be bummed to be gone.

[icrman]

Where do you get the 5/16 cutter? Anyone??

[Len]

Where do you get the 5/16 cutter? Anyone??

We have them in the store linked below.


http://autobodystore.net/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/WivicoSpotDrill.jpg
Spot Weld Bits Link (http://autobodystore.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=WSWRB&Category_Code=CDB)

[icrman]

The comment says "small pilot hole" ? The 3/8 one I have has a spring loade pilot.
I want to maintain originality, and not have a hole to promote burn through. Does anyone make the spring loaded pilot spot weld cutter in 5/16?

[Len]

The comment says "small pilot hole" ? The 3/8 one I have has a spring loade pilot.
I want to maintain originality, and not have a hole to promote burn through. Does anyone make the spring loaded pilot spot weld cutter in 5/16?

Are you talking about the hole saw type? The problem with them is that they leave the welded plug on the remaining metal then it needs to be removed by grinding. I used that type until I found the Wivco Bits and found that the hole saw type did more damage, were more difficult to use and dulled much more quickly.

[tech69]

Are you sure you're not thinking about the thin walled hole saw bits? The blair rotabroach bits last a long time in my opinion. The thin walled ones last for a couple welds.

[Len]

Are you sure you're not thinking about the thin walled hole saw bits? The blair rotabroach bits last a long time in my opinion. The thin walled ones last for a couple welds.

Don't the rotabroach leave a piece of metal on the remaining panel that needs to be ground off? That's another reason I don't use the hole saw type bits.

[tech69]

Don't the rotabroach leave a piece of metal on the remaining panel that needs to be ground off? That's another reason I don't use the hole saw type bits.

They do leave the stub but for the cost I think it justifies the annoyance of having to grind them down.

[tech69]

Floor pan pic There was a lot of thinking behind coming up with this approach. That's what I love about rust work.

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x463/embsanch/P1050601.jpg

[icrman]

Very good fit, how did you do it? Card board pattern?

So what size spot weld cutter did you use on the step? It looks real good.

[tech69]

I give a good explanation of my thinking behind it in this video below.
What it doesn't show is the subtle differences between factory and
after market parts....shaving here, bending there, etc...
I heard a lot of horror stories with using large portions of
floor pan patches but it simply would have looked like dog poo
had I not cut out soo much. Very happy with how it "seems"
to be going right now. I used a 3/16" Rotabroach bit for the step.
It's the non pilot version. I use that with a $2 spring loaded punch
and it doesn't skip around.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DrbVs9Sa3w



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DrbVs9Sa3w

[icrman]

Hi, I need the info where to get that 3/16 cutter????
Thanks

[Len]

Hi, I need the info where to get that 3/16 cutter????
Thanks

The Wivico bits don't leave the spot weld they mill off the surface. The different sizes are on the link below. If you use a "hole saw" with a spring loaded center pin there will be a good chance that you'll have half of your spots go through your second piece of metal anyway. The 1/8" hole can easily be tacked after the new panel is in place.


http://autobodystore.net/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/WivicoSpotDrill.jpg
Link (http://autobodystore.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=WSWRB&Category_Code=CDB)

[tech69]

Not to start a pissing match with you but for this Chevy cab I must have drilled out over 80 spot welds with one bit. It only cut thru 2 times and I blame myself.

[Len]

Not to start a pissing match with you but for this Chevy cab I must have drilled out over 80 spot welds with one bit. It only cut thru 2 times and I blame myself.

And just think of all the time you wasted grinding off all those pieces of metal that the hole saw left welded to the remaining panel.

[tech69]

at that point I had already welded shut around 70 holes, so what's 80 more? Somehow that logic doesn't strike me. :D

The winner would be this... say some one used both at the exact same time. As soon as they're done you'd race off to weld the backs and grind it off,
while I Simply Use a cutt off wheel, and two die grinder discs. At the gate I already have a head start.

You don't always have to clean up the stub. Who's gonna see it, another bodyman 10- 20 years later It can hide easier than a hole and only affects that side
that will most likely be mated against a surface. The holes is for all to see.

In the most simple terms it makes sense...

One leaves a small stub on the side that will likely have a flange covering it.

One leaves a small hole on the opposite side. It's a guess whether or not
it will be hidden.

Tomatoes Tomatos.

[Len]

at that point I had already welded shut around 70 holes, so what's 80 more? Somehow that logic doesn't strike me. :D

The winner would be this... say some one used both at the exact same time. As soon as they're done you'd race off to weld the backs and grind it off,
while I Simply Use a cutt off wheel, and two die grinder discs. At the gate I already have a head start.

You don't always have to clean up the stub. Who's gonna see it, another bodyman 10- 20 years later It can hide easier than a hole and only affects that side
that will most likely be mated against a surface. The holes is for all to see.

In the most simple terms it makes sense...

One leaves a small stub on the side that will likely have a flange covering it.

One leaves a small hole on the opposite side. It's a guess whether or not
it will be hidden.

Tomatoes Tomatos.

Do you use a seam sealer on the seam when you're finished? That same sealer will seal those holes at the same time.

[Len]

Your videos are getting a little better because you're showing some of the work actually being done. If the floor of that pickup doesn't need to be show quality on the underside (most don't) it would be a lot faster and easier to use a backing strip then seam seal the strip when you're finished. By using the backing strip you can cut out the bad metal, make your patch, install the backing strips around the hole then drop in your patch and weld it up. The fit of the patch isn't as critical with the backing strip.

[tech69]

Do you use a seam sealer on the seam when you're finished? That same sealer will seal those holes at the same time.

We Always use seam sealer. No need to seal a hole when there's no hole.:D Sometimes I have nipple poking out of a blouse.... I mean from under a flange and I just grind it real quick with a cut off and clean it up.

[Len]

We Always use seam sealer. No need to seal a hole when there's no hole.:D Sometimes I have nipple poking out of a blouse.... I mean from under a flange and I just grind it real quick with a cut off and clean it up.

Henry
I realize you know more than me, after all you've probably been doing this work for a couple years now. I probably used hole saw bits for 15 years before I discovered milling bits. Have you ever used a milling bit?

[tech69]

Henry
I realize you know more than me, after all you've probably been doing this work for a couple years now. I probably used hole saw bits for 15 years before I discovered milling bits. Have you ever used a milling bit?



Len, I'd never second guess your opinion on products when you paste your link for products had he not been asking me where to get the bits, cause
at the same time of course it would be nice to sell some things too but I think in this instance he was asking me and I feel strong armed to not answer.

[tech69]

Your videos are getting a little better because you're showing some of the work actually being done. If the floor of that pickup doesn't need to be show quality on the underside (most don't) it would be a lot faster and easier to use a backing strip then seam seal the strip when you're finished. By using the backing strip you can cut out the bad metal, make your patch, install the backing strips around the hole then drop in your patch and weld it up. The fit of the patch isn't as critical with the backing strip.

Thanks for the kind words. My boss won't let me use backing strips unless they are hidden.

[Len]

Thanks for the kind words. My boss won't let me use backing strips unless they are hidden.

Yes, that's why I said that when you have a show quality repair then the backing strip under the truck may not be acceptable however then neither would a flange so butt welding would be the way to go.

[tech69]

Yes, that's why I said that when you have a show quality repair then the backing strip under the truck may not be acceptable however then neither would a flange so butt welding would be the way to go.

We try to hide everything but there's some exceptions... Like the cab corners he wants low so people can't see the flange from inside. Just things like that. That's why it's flanged around the transmission cover, but I personally chose that approach cause believe it or not I thought the welding would be easiest. Sounds stupid but to me taking it to the end just gives me a little more open butt welding but a lot easier welding on the outskirts as opposed to welding down the middle.

[MARTINSR]

You're getting better with the videos. But you have to get more "how to" if that is what you are after. It is still sort of a overall sort of thing. Skip the long intro, we don't care. :D And for goodness sakes put the text larger and leave it up longer. I honestly didn't read half of what you put up you would need to be a speed reader with a magnifying glass to read it!

You did ask for a critique right? Where in the heck are your large C clamps and for God's sake your welding helmet????? The UV will go THRU your eye lids there Henry, you want to be able to see your grandkids dude, protect yourself. But the C clamps, there are up to 24" Vicegrip C clamps that would make that job SOOOOOOO much easier.

Quite honestly, if I were Len I would remove the video that shows a guy welding without a helmet on. THAT is how serious that is.

Brian

[tech69]

You're getting better with the videos. But you have to get more "how to" if that is what you are after. It is still sort of a overall sort of thing. Skip the long intro, we don't care. :D And for goodness sakes put the text larger and leave it up longer. I honestly didn't read half of what you put up you would need to be a speed reader with a magnifying glass to read it!

You did ask for a critique right? Where in the heck are your large C clamps and for God's sake your welding helmet????? The UV will go THRU your eye lids there Henry, you want to be able to see your grandkids dude, protect yourself. But the C clamps, there are up to 24" Vicegrip C clamps that would make that job SOOOOOOO much easier.

Quite honestly, if I were Len I would remove the video that shows a guy welding without a helmet on. THAT is how serious that is.

Brian

I only not use a helmet when I'm doing the first few tacks. I have determined that a lot of shifting can take place within that time frame of me putting on the helmet and tacking, so I do it without one til I'm confident it is lined up ok. Banning the video for that would be overly anal and would just prove some people are nitpicking and will find ANY reason to say something discouraging but I take it with a grain of salt.

As far as clamping it down, I needed it to be "freefloating" til I was confident no more shifting was needed for the open butt weld up front. There was a scene I didn't have enough youtube time for and it showed me then using taping screws once I didn't need it to shift cause of line up issues. At that point the shifting caused a corner of the flanged area to be wrong so I tweaked it once I realized it wouldn't tweak the open butt weld up front. My thought process behind it wouldn't have allowed for clamps. It had to be freefloating.

[Len]

I only not use a helmet when I'm doing the first few tacks. I have determined that a lot of shifting can take place within that time frame of me putting on the helmet and tacking, so I do it without one til I'm confident it is lined up ok. Banning the video for that would be overly anal and would just prove some people are nitpicking and will find ANY reason to say something discouraging but I take it with a grain of salt.

As far as clamping it down, I needed it to be "freefloating" til I was confident no more shifting was needed for the open butt weld up front. There was a scene I didn't have enough youtube time for and it showed me then using taping screws once I didn't need it to shift cause of line up issues. At that point the shifting caused a corner of the flanged area to be wrong so I tweaked it once I realized it wouldn't tweak the open butt weld up front. My thought process behind it wouldn't have allowed for clamps. It had to be freefloating.

Henry
You're so inexperienced (or hard headed) that you don't know good information from bad information. Someone may pick up something from your videos but chances are they will pick up more bad info than good including NOT using eye protection when welding. When Brian talks you should be listening because he has seen more repairs of this type than you've seen days in this business. Maybe you should grow up a little before you post more videos.

[MARTINSR]

I only not use a helmet when I'm doing the first few tacks. I have determined that a lot of shifting can take place within that time frame of me putting on the helmet and tacking, so I do it without one til I'm confident it is lined up ok. Banning the video for that would be overly anal and would just prove some people are nitpicking and will find ANY reason to say something discouraging but I take it with a grain of salt..

Henry, as far as the helmet goes, get yourself a good helmet. Personally I use an Accustrike and wouldn't weld without it. http://www.accustrike.com/ An auto dark of course is another option but I HATE them, to each his own. You have learned to do things a certain way and sometimes it is just "another way" and neither of us is right or wrong. But this, I have to tell you, you are young, and like I was when I was young, I took chances thinking it didn't matter. I know a LOT of old bodymen who's bodies are all busted up, eyes nearly blind, backs and knees all screwed up. I was lucky enough to start listening to people, all because of one particular lady in a nearby machine shop who explained some things to me about this. I started watching myself a lot more, this was 30 years ago and I am DAMN THANKFUL I did. I have used creepers, mats to kneel on, ear protection, respirators, eye protection, etc pretty regularly (but still not enough!). I am 52 and can take off on a hike at a near by peak and climb 2400 ft in about an hour and twenty minutes. I have done it 5 times this year so far. I can grab a hood or door and put it over my head and walk across the property to go throw it in the metal bin. I can drop and do finger tip or one hand pushups at ease. I know of NO OTHER 52 year old bodyman who can do this as easily as I can. I have had guys work with me who at my age were DONE, I mean D-O-N-E, finished, lucky to go on a friggin walk around the block. Watch yourself Henry, you don't get do-overs with your health. You don't get to correct broken down bodies like you can cars when they are 50 years old.

I said Len should take it off, not because it is such a big deal. It's like a wrinkled frame rail on a car, around the shop we will always say "I would pull it and repair if it were my car, but for a customer, NO WAY, it gets replaced". Lens exposure to a law suit is real, the liability is REAL.




As far as clamping it down, I needed it to be "freefloating" til I was confident no more shifting was needed for the open butt weld up front. There was a scene I didn't have enough youtube time for and it showed me then using taping screws once I didn't need it to shift cause of line up issues. At that point the shifting caused a corner of the flanged area to be wrong so I tweaked it once I realized it wouldn't tweak the open butt weld up front. My thought process behind it wouldn't have allowed for clamps. It had to be freefloating.

If you clamp the part in so the butt matches up, it won't shift. Clamp it where you want it and weld it.

Brian

[tech69]

Henry, as far as the helmet goes, get yourself a good helmet. Personally I use an Accustrike and wouldn't weld without it. http://www.accustrike.com/ An auto dark of course is another option but I HATE them, to each his own. You have learned to do things a certain way and sometimes it is just "another way" and neither of us is right or wrong. But this, I have to tell you, you are young, and like I was when I was young, I took chances thinking it didn't matter. I know a LOT of old bodymen who's bodies are all busted up, eyes nearly blind, backs and knees all screwed up. I was lucky enough to start listening to people, all because of one particular lady in a nearby machine shop who explained some things to me about this. I started watching myself a lot more, this was 30 years ago and I am DAMN THANKFUL I did. I have used creepers, mats to kneel on, ear protection, respirators, eye protection, etc pretty regularly (but still not enough!). I am 52 and can take off on a hike at a near by peak and climb 2400 ft in about an hour and twenty minutes. I have done it 5 times this year so far. I can grab a hood or door and put it over my head and walk across the property to go throw it in the metal bin. I can drop and do finger tip or one hand pushups at ease. I know of NO OTHER 52 year old bodyman who can do this as easily as I can. I have had guys work with me who at my age were DONE, I mean D-O-N-E, finished, lucky to go on a friggin walk around the block. Watch yourself Henry, you don't get do-overs with your health. You don't get to correct broken down bodies like you can cars when they are 50 years old.

I said Len should take it off, not because it is such a big deal. It's like a wrinkled frame rail on a car, around the shop we will always say "I would pull it and repair if it were my car, but for a customer, NO WAY, it gets replaced". Lens exposure to a law suit is real, the liability is REAL.




If you clamp the part in so the butt matches up, it won't shift. Clamp it where you want it and weld it.

Brian

Ok, I see what you're saying now. I thought you were referring to the other areas that were allowed to float. You are soo right about that. Just don't have a full set of tools for that, let alone good clamps. I'm just recently hitting the journeyman side of things and so I'm still in need of the tools that go along with the change of operation. It's a whole new ballgame.

You're right about health but I think there's no saving me. I love the trade too much. I don't even hand feel with gloves cause I don't like them. So I have no prints on the joints in my hands. I will rethink that approach though. The good thing is, fiillers don't sand like they used to and tools and better procedures, equipment, etc, will at least help somewhat. For my shoulders anyways but I never thought about kneeling down and things like that. Good point. Thanks for that.

[Len]

criticizing is one thing but this is more about maintaining the pecking order and frat mentality around here. If the responses were more genuine, or in otherwords, something I can't see thru, than I can understand.

Maybe when you do this for a few more years you'll recognize the talent and lack of talent that others refuse to recognize. That's how the "pecking order" around here is determined.

[MARTINSR]

Ok, I see what you're saying now. I thought you were referring to the other areas that were allowed to float. You are soo right about that. Just don't have a full set of tools for that, let alone good clamps. I'm just recently hitting the journeyman side of things and so I'm still in need of the tools that go along with the change of operation. It's a whole new ballgame.

You're right about health but I think there's no saving me. I love the trade too much. I don't even hand feel with gloves cause I don't like them. So I have no prints on the joints in my hands. I will rethink that approach though. The good thing is, fiillers don't sand like they used to and tools and better procedures, equipment, etc, will at least help somewhat. For my shoulders anyways but I never thought about kneeling down and things like that. Good point. Thanks for that.

Start picking up the large Vice Grips, they are GOLD when doing those kind of jobs. I swear, if I had a hundred pairs I think I would find them in use at one time.

Sure, feeling filler bare handed is the only way, I can't do it with gloves either. I will mix and spread filler with latex gloves on, but that is it. Listen, how much you love this work has nothing to do with protecting yourself. Other than the fact that the more you protect yourself the LONGER you will be able to enjoy it!
Get yourself a few pairs good ear muffs. Here (http://www.amazon.com/b?ie=UTF8&node=553558) are some as low as $11
http://www.approvedgasmasks.com/images/ear-QM24.jpg

Even these are better than nothing.
http://image.motorcyclecruiser.com/f/8838260/0710_crup_01_z+motorcycle_safety_hearing_protectio n+ear_plugs_set_1.jpg


But I rarely use them, opting for the ear muffs.

I have a few pairs of some similar to these Stereo Ear Muffs (http://hyskore.com/wp/2010/12/12/stereo-reception/) The ones I have were about $45 at an ACE hardware store.

Having a few pairs of these sitting around the shop will ensure that you won't work with some air tool "just for a little bit" and leave off your protection. Have them within arms reach and you are always protected.

As far as eye protection, I wear glasses so I am limited to something like this.
http://www.uvprocess.com/product.asp?code=EYEPRO+++W

These in particular are chemical resistant as well. But common goggles similar to these can be had for only a few bucks each on sale at the hardware store. Again, I have them all over the shop so I only have to reach out to grab a pair.

Good dust masks, oh my God when I think of how much I sanded with those stupid single strap ones. Now these are the VERY minimum I will use.
http://www.cameraphonesplaza.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/n95-particle-mask.jpg

And again, I buy the box of them and make sure I use them, keeping them at hand at all times.

To be continued.....

[tech69]

Start picking up the large Vice Grips, they are GOLD when doing those kind of jobs. I swear, if I had a hundred pairs I think I would find them in use at one time.

Sure, feeling filler bare handed is the only way, I can't do it with gloves either. I will mix and spread filler with latex gloves on, but that is it. Listen, how much you love this work has nothing to do with protecting yourself. Other than the fact that the more you protect yourself the LONGER you will be able to enjoy it!
Get yourself a few pairs good ear muffs. Here (http://www.amazon.com/b?ie=UTF8&node=553558) are some as low as $11
http://www.approvedgasmasks.com/images/ear-QM24.jpg

Even these are better than nothing.
http://image.motorcyclecruiser.com/f/8838260/0710_crup_01_z+motorcycle_safety_hearing_protectio n+ear_plugs_set_1.jpg


But I rarely use them, opting for the ear muffs.

I have a few pairs of some similar to these Stereo Ear Muffs (http://hyskore.com/wp/2010/12/12/stereo-reception/) The ones I have were about $45 at an ACE hardware store.

Having a few pairs of these sitting around the shop will ensure that you won't work with some air tool "just for a little bit" and leave off your protection. Have them within arms reach and you are always protected.

As far as eye protection, I wear glasses so I am limited to something like this.
http://www.uvprocess.com/product.asp?code=EYEPRO+++W

These in particular are chemical resistant as well. But common goggles similar to these can be had for only a few bucks each on sale at the hardware store. Again, I have them all over the shop so I only have to reach out to grab a pair.

Good dust masks, oh my God when I think of how much I sanded with those stupid single strap ones. Now these are the VERY minimum I will use.
http://www.cameraphonesplaza.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/n95-particle-mask.jpg

And again, I buy the box of them and make sure I use them, keeping them at hand at all times.

To be continued.....

I have already noticed differences in my hearing but I think that has to do with pumping myself up with my walkman before skating. I did that for years. Not sure if it has to do with work but have noticed you don't really think about noise being an issue til you're doing something loud and have them on. At that moment you feel more comfortable as if the noise subconsciously bothers you in a way but you don't realize it til you have ear protection. Thanks for the reminder.

[MARTINSR]

To kneel on something besides the concrete is really important. I used knee pads for a while, they were kind of a pain, uncomfortable, you have to make an effort to put them on, so often they were ignored. I started making matts from the foam they wrap a new bumper in, that works good. A carpet like this from the trunk of a total are nice.
http://www.dragtimes.com/images-classifieds-large/TOYOTA-MATRIX-03-08-TRUNK-FLOOR-CARPET-MAT-CHARCOAL-OEM-for-sale_270699729303.jpg

I don't let a total leave the shop with one and have made sure every tech has one.

A quality creeper is a must. I have one of these Lisle low profile ones. They are the only way to fly if you ask me.
http://toolmonger.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/post-creeper.jpg

On that spot weld drilling, I am sorry but there is NO WAY I am going to work without a Spitsnagle spot weld drill.
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa167/BasicsofBasics/100_3944.jpg

There is simply NO WAY I am going to work without it. You can remove a spot weld with virtually zero cut into the metal below. You use next to zero effort because it's bit is pushed into the metal by air! You simply place the tool in place and pull the trigger and it does all the work for you. You dial in the depth to go and wham, you can drill hole after hole in perfection.

Start buying quality tools that save your back, you will be very thankful in twenty or thirty years.

Brian

[MARTINSR]

When I used to go to the drags I called the people wimps who were with ear protection on. The last time I went to the top fuel races a couple of summers ago I brought my ear muffs for me and my son. I had never enjoyed the drags like that before! Those top fuelers will blow your friggin brains out! With those ear muffs we stood right at the fence at the 60 ft mark and enjoyed the feeling of the power without our ears hurting.

Brian

[Len]

all I'm hearing/reading are words... and a few glimpses of reality.

http://autobodystore.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1728&d=1232564009

So, are you a better welder than me? Answer honestly. Are YOU a better welder than me?

Yes, I probably am a better welder but I hired a guy who is even better than me.

[tech69]

Now it's "probably"? yeah, I'll just take your word for it cause the pic is probably lying. :)

[Len]

Now it's "probably"? yeah, I'll just take your word for it cause the pic is probably lying. :)

What picture is "probably" lying?

[tech69]

Are you saying that pic of yours displays better welding than mine?

This pic right here...

http://autobodystore.com/forum/attac...8&d=1232564009

I can see you deleted the pic... good thing I saved it on my hard drive...

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x463/embsanch/attachment.jpg

I have more on my hard drive but I don't like putting you on the spot like that, but you
are forcing me too. Just delete the back and forths cause I can see how embarassing
this can be for you being you deleted the pic. let's move on and we'll never go here
again...agreed? Just know, I stand 100% behind my work and when I'm not so
sure of it, I have enough confidence to be open about it. My work speaks for itself.

[Len]

Are you saying that pic of yours displays better welding than mine?

This pic right here...

http://autobodystore.com/forum/attac...8&d=1232564009

I can see you deleted the pic... good thing I saved it on my hard drive...

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x463/embsanch/attachment.jpg

I have more on my hard drive but I don't like putting you on the spot like that, but you
are forcing me too. Just delete the back and forths and let's move on and we'll never go here
again...agreed?

The back and forth shows how much of an amateur you are and you should try to LEARN more before you give people advice. This "I'm the best attitude" is one of the reasons you've had to change your user ID several times and you've been tossed off this board several times. Keep up the BS and you'll be gone permanently.

The picture you posted is my helper that never did a patch before and ended up punching holes in both sides of the backing strip before he was corrected. The job came out great even though he had some extra welding to do. Maybe you should take some lessons from him because he's a decent welder now. My other helper has had a welding job before he came here and he's a magician with my Lincoln.

[Len]

so, you're allowed to dictate how much better than you are then me with words yet when you get presented with proof that says otherwise I'm the one that's bullshitting?

How does that work out? Just delete the back and forths. I never wanted to go here.
You just have a problem with me having an opinion and I'm tiring of having to kiss your
butt when your pics speak otherwise.

If you're such an expert what do you see that is wrong with that picture?

[Len]

It might be ugly during the repair but it came out nice and strong and you can't tell it was repaired by looking at the finished lid. After he finished the welding of the EZ Edge he ground it and applied fiberglass then body filler and ended up with a strong and undetectable repair.

So what is wrong with the first picture you posted?

Nevermind, you don't have a clue.


5959

[icrman]

Great videos, though the 2 were the same thing. I'm only interested in the original show quality type repairs. How would you do a cab corner repair and make is undetectable? It would be very difficult to grind the inside part. I would still like to know where to get a spot weld cutter that is smaller than 3/8 inch diameter, and doesn't create a hole in the opposite panel, I don't really like the idea of having to fix 2 sides of the weld. Also how are you making a tack weld in a spot weld cut out hole look like an original spot weld? And a huge thanks for the video I learned how to fit the patch panel. You do good work.

[Bob K]

I don’t like small spot weld cutters because you need a decent size hole to start your weld on the bottom sheet of metal. If the hole is too small you will get a weld that looks good on top but may not be attached to the back piece of metal. Looks good but won’t hold up very well. That pilot hole is insignificant when you start welding the new connection. I was taught to place my plug welds in the same place that the original manufacturer placed his spot welds, so I drill a hole in the new panel at the same place as the spot weld. You should see the hole on the lower panel right where the plug weld is going to be. If you are welding plug welds and turn the metal over and see no evidence of the weld then I’m sorry to tell you your welds aren’t going to hold. You are probably getting a skim over the hole but not an attachment. You can’t get a good weld on sheet metal and not see it on the back side. The metal is just too thin. If you don’t see where the weld is then it isn’t really attached there.

To go on to your question of mimicking spot welds, you can spread filler along the line of plug welds after they have been ground to perfection and take a wood pencil with a rubber eraser and give the eraser a little spin in the fresh filler. After it sets up a little sanding will remove the edge that formed but leaves a mark that will look like a spot weld when painted.

Bob K

[tech69]

Great videos, though the 2 were the same thing. I'm only interested in the original show quality type repairs. How would you do a cab corner repair and make is undetectable? It would be very difficult to grind the inside part. I would still like to know where to get a spot weld cutter that is smaller than 3/8 inch diameter, and doesn't create a hole in the opposite panel, I don't really like the idea of having to fix 2 sides of the weld. Also how are you making a tack weld in a spot weld cut out hole look like an original spot weld? And a huge thanks for the video I learned how to fit the patch panel. You do good work.

Thanks for the kind words. I think I might do one on basic fabrication as well, which would be explained in a way that would make it a snap for anybody. You'd like that.

I have to admit, I think doing the cab corner as an open butt weld might be kind of hard. I'm not sure cause it's not like I had a chance to line it up edge to edge but with the way it wraps around I can imagine it being a pain in the ass, a real pain! Then again, I don't know cause I didn't try. The way I did it I just flanged it all around where the tool would fit in but open butt welded 1" on each side of the bodyline that wraps it around the corner. Doing that sucks it up where it wraps around. It's impossible with the flange there, I tried!

If I wanted to open butt weld it I would scribe it like in the video and do the same thing but just be more aware of my cut line when I'm cutting and insuring I'm cutting below the scribe.
The most important thing for an open butt weld would not only be lining up the bodyline and cut line but the one that can get you by surprise is the angle of the panels butting up. That's just as important as your cut line if you want clean work.

I make plugs look like factory by grinding them down a certain way and leaving the edge. If one side of the edge grinds down by accident you can
turn it into a moon shape, which is still something you see as factory. However, I think Bob answered this with something that sounds really good or
better. Using an eraser on soft filler. Brilliant!

As far as where to get the bits, I think it would be rude to say. Len sells quality stuff here and so it's not appropriate for me to say.

[tech69]

I don’t like small spot weld cutters because you need a decent size hole to start your weld on the bottom sheet of metal. If the hole is too small you will get a weld that looks good on top but may not be attached to the back piece of metal. Looks good but won’t hold up very well. That pilot hole is insignificant when you start welding the new connection. I was taught to place my plug welds in the same place that the original manufacturer placed his spot welds, so I drill a hole in the new panel at the same place as the spot weld. You should see the hole on the lower panel right where the plug weld is going to be. If you are welding plug welds and turn the metal over and see no evidence of the weld then I’m sorry to tell you your welds aren’t going to hold. You are probably getting a skim over the hole but not an attachment. You can’t get a good weld on sheet metal and not see it on the back side. The metal is just too thin. If you don’t see where the weld is then it isn’t really attached there.

To go on to your question of mimicking spot welds, you can spread filler along the line of plug welds after they have been ground to perfection and take a wood pencil with a rubber eraser and give the eraser a little spin in the fresh filler. After it sets up a little sanding will remove the edge that formed but leaves a mark that will look like a spot weld when painted.

Bob K

oooooooooh shit! That's an awesome technique. I'll remember that. You can also grind them down real low and leave the edges. You have to grind it carefully though. You can also do half moons as well. Grind it, fiber disk, and prime.

[icrman]

Hey Tec please cool it with Len, I don't want to see ya kicked off. I love seeing the task force fix it stuff, if your gone there will be none. Len does some really nice work too, and saying nothing about all the time and effort to keep this site going. I have learned a bunch from this site.

About the welding, I've done plenty of welding in the past, so I know when theres penetration or not, and actually it does not take much of a weld to mimic a spot weld, spot welds are not the best weld there is, because generally they have been done in the atmosphere, unlike a mig or even stick weld, which has a flux or inert gas to keep the atmoshere out of the weld material. The biggest problem is the thin material is not very forgiving to burn through.

Question are you always multi spot welding when putting in those panels? Or do you at a point lay a bead? And how come your not using a auto darken helmut?

[Len]

oooooooooh shit! That's an awesome technique. I'll remember that. You can also grind them down real low and leave the edges. You have to grind it carefully though. You can also do half moons as well. Grind it, fiber disk, and prime.

Most of the cars that we do we don't want any spot weld craters showing, we want a real smooth surface not a factory one. I've done restorations where an original look was important but even then the raising of the original workmanship to a new level usually won the prize.

There's nothing I like more than seeing an "old and original" car at a show but they are few and far between and the resto is almost always honed to higher quality than the original factory buggy.

[tech69]

Most of the cars that we do we don't want any spot weld craters showing, we want a real smooth surface not a factory one. I've done restorations where an original look was important but even then the raising of the original workmanship to a new level usually won the prize.

There's nothing I like more than seeing an "old and original" car at a show but they are few and far between and the resto is almost always honed to higher quality than the original factory buggy.
True, very true.

Except jeeps. Gotta keep for those.:D

[Len]

True, very true.

Except jeeps. Gotta keep for those.:D

Again, it depends on the result you want. We just did a Jeep and the decision was made to eliminate the spot welds because they distorted the metal so much. If they had all been the same we probably would have left them but they were quite uneven and showed just how poor the workmanship was so we pounded, pulled and filled until they were gone. It looks a lot better but not "original".


5960
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[tech69]

Again, it depends on the result you want. We just did a Jeep and the decision was made to eliminate the spot welds because they distorted the metal so much. If they had all been the same we probably would have left them but they were quite uneven and showed just how poor the workmanship was so we pounded, pulled and filled until they were gone. It looks a lot better but not "original".


5960
Click to Enlarge

very true. I try to keep as many as I can. If i take to many out on that line of spot welds I'll take them all out. I just use it as an excuse to get out of bodywork. "hey boss, want to keep the spot welds?"

[Len]

very true. I try to keep as many as I can. If i take to many out on that line of spot welds I'll take them all out. I just use it as an excuse to get out of bodywork. "hey boss, want to keep the spot welds?"

Usually, when someone is paying four times as much for body and paint work as the car originally costs, they don't want dents showing all over the side. But the purists might see it otherwise.

[tech69]

Hey Tec please cool it with Len, I don't want to see ya kicked off. I love seeing the task force fix it stuff, if your gone there will be none. Len does some really nice work too, and saying nothing about all the time and effort to keep this site going. I have learned a bunch from this site.

About the welding, I've done plenty of welding in the past, so I know when theres penetration or not, and actually it does not take much of a weld to mimic a spot weld, spot welds are not the best weld there is, because generally they have been done in the atmosphere, unlike a mig or even stick weld, which has a flux or inert gas to keep the atmoshere out of the weld material. The biggest problem is the thin material is not very forgiving to burn through.

Question are you always multi spot welding when putting in those panels? Or do you at a point lay a bead? And how come your not using a auto darken helmut?

I don't use a helmet for the initial line up, or with that one anyways. I just wanted to make sure that baby didn't move. This truck is almost done and I wanted that one to be perfect.I have a great blue nitro self darkening. I love it.

It depends on the panel whether or not I tack it or run small tack beads. . Some of the things to consider is how vulnerable that area is to warpage. The shape has to do with that. Tighter areas of metal are harder to warp naturally, like areas trapped in by bodylines. Curves are harder warp. In the middle of huge panels you don't want to run beads. They warp! The closer it is to the edge the less it will want to warp, cause it's tighter naturally.
So basically if it's a go for a bead I still only run a 1/4" tack-bead hybrid due to hot settings. Great penetration. So when I can run a bead I will for the easy clean up.

[SamG]

Question are you always multi spot welding when putting in those panels? Or do you at a point lay a bead?

I'm not Tech (Henry), but I'll chime in here...

As far as creating a bead by pulling the trigger and letting it fly (bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz)? Almost never.

Looking at this picture, you'll see plenty of 'beads' created by triggering the gun (bz,,bz,,bz,,bz,,bz,,bz,,bz,,bz,,).

The toe board (area behind the gas and brake pedal) is true butt welds. The floor pan is a combination of plug welds, butt welds, and butt welds with backers (using factory framerails, transmission crossmember, and seat platform flanges as the backers). Makes for a practically invisible repair when finished.

SamG

http://webpages.charter.net/sgilliam8850/floor/insidefloor2.jpg

[Roger J.]

Again, it depends on the result you want. We just did a Jeep and the decision was made to eliminate the spot welds because they distorted the metal so much. If they had all been the same we probably would have left them but they were quite uneven and showed just how poor the workmanship was so we pounded, pulled and filled until they were gone. It looks a lot better but not "original".


5960
Click to Enlarge

Len, I was talking to a couple folks about this not long ago,, and someone recommended using panel adhesive for bonding new quarters to the wheel wells to eliminate the need to plug weld on the face of the panel. Eliminating the need to dress those welds out to hide them.
Is that something you would recommend?.

[tech69]

I'm not Tech (Henry), but I'll chime in here...

As far as creating a bead by pulling the trigger and letting it fly (bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz)? Almost never.

Looking at this picture, you'll see plenty of 'beads' created by triggering the gun (bz,,bz,,bz,,bz,,bz,,bz,,bz,,bz,,).

The toe board (area behind the gas and brake pedal) is true butt welds. The floor pan is a combination of plug welds, butt welds, and butt welds with backers (using factory framerails, transmission crossmember, and seat platform flanges as the backers). Makes for a practically invisible repair when finished.

SamG

http://webpages.charter.net/sgilliam8850/floor/insidefloor2.jpg

your welding is tops around here. No doubt. I WISH I could make my welds that pretty. Great approach and that's what I try to aim for...minus the perfect welds you do. :)

[SamG]

Thanks for the kind words, but I promise I can blow a hole or lay some turd-looking welds on there just like everyone else.

Getting a nice weld does involve a little skill, but mostly it's in the prep (making sure it's clean), making sure it fits well, and getting the machine set correctly.

BTW, I learned to weld out of embarrassment...

When I started doing this years ago, I started working for a person rebuilding total-loss wrecks. I worked as an apprentice but quickly advanced because of attention to detail...In other words, the less I did that he had to correct, the more responsibility I was given. Speed was important to him, but quality was top priority. However he had only one person that he trusted with his welding, and it wasn't me. It was the older guy working on the other side of the shop. I would get something ready, cut it, fit it, tack it, then sit back and watch someone else finish my job.

I couldn't stand it. I had a family member who was a welding instructor, so I would go home every day from work and practice welding on anything from damaged fenders to plate steel. My welding skills started to improve.

One day, the guy who normally did the welding was out sick...so the boss relented and asked me to weld the floorpan only on a top and tail section. He would save the A pillar and rocker panels for his 'welder'. The next day he was out. And the next. Finally the boss asked if I was comfortable welding the rockers and windshield posts. Of course I agreed and from that point forward, I did all my own welding. Eventually, I replaced the experienced bodyman, but only after learning everything I could from him. Not all good, but knowledge nonetheless.

The boss? I still work with him on a regular basis. Primarily on old car restorations, but we still build a few total loss vehicles along...

Sorry for the thread hijack...

SamG

[tech69]

great story and inspiring, especially about the determination. I have that drive in me too. Funny how you mentioned things you did in your garage helped you when the light was shined on you. Same thing for me in a way cause when I cut out little patches and kept welding them in I had no idea it would prepare me to do a hudson where I had to metal fab a bunch of stuff. Funny, I looked at the Hudson and asked the boss... "how and the hell is anyone gonna fix that with no parts??? Who's gonna weld it?" Then he told me I'd be doing it. So for the first week into it I was REALLY nervous til the confidence started to build. Learned a lot about welding since then but there's plenty of more to learn as well.

[icrman]

Any more pictures of progress, or other truck projects?

[tech69]

I guess the guy doesn't have money this week to pay for work to be done on it. It's just sitting there with only the step and cleaning up some things. Funny, this thing will be cleaned up on it's rear! Would be funny if it totally destroys the cab corners rolling it over. I'll take a pic of that. That ought to be funny.

Just realized I have no new pics cause I need to save memory card space for filming but tomorrow I'll be sure to take some pics from some different angles since there will be nothing noteworthy to film tomorrow.

[icrman]

Well when I do mine I'm planning on making a steel tube stand that will have plug in pieces both front and rear to roll it over either front or back. The cab will bolt to it at the mount points. I may even end up doing a funky rotisery deal, using the upper door hinge points and the latch point, these will also be the support jig, as well as for measurement purposes so there is no crappy weld it in deal for support etc. I'm a strict factory original person doing these trucks.

[tech69]

that rotisserie is gonna be really helpful for the step cause there's no need to do all your plug welds from the front. Makes it much easier to cutt it out by simply drilling it out instead of using a spot cutter. Also very helpful to do the inner cab corners.

I wish we had one. This job would be a lot faster.

[icrman]

Well got the cab off, the wood hoist beam worked great. Lifted at the upper door sills with a cherry picker engine hoist, that the beam setup was cross bolted to, center of gravity was right at the front seat mount beam in the floor for front and back CG.
The rotisery deal can be made from a couple of cheapy harbor freight engine stands lengthened up to allow the swing and the rotation made horizontal instead of at the angle they are at. And could be mounted either to the door openings via that upove idea, or a cradle that goes under to the cab mount points. It all shouldn't set ya back more than say 200 at the most for materials.

[Len]

Well got the cab off, the wood hoist beam worked great. Lifted at the upper door sills with a cherry picker engine hoist, that the beam setup was cross bolted to, center of gravity was right at the front seat mount beam in the floor for front and back CG.
The rotisery deal can be made from a couple of cheapy harbor freight engine stands lengthened up to allow the swing and the rotation made horizontal instead of at the angle they are at. And could be mounted either to the door openings via that upove idea, or a cradle that goes under to the cab mount points. It all shouldn't set ya back more than say 200 at the most for materials.

Be VERY careful using cheap engine stands as a rotisserie because they don't have a wide footprint and can tip over easily when you rotate the load. It can be difficult to center the load properly on an engine stand that isn't meant to hold that type of work. I don't know what it costs to make a good stand but you can get plans online and I believe they are free. A customer of mine brought us a couple cars on a rotisserie he built and it was much more stable than engine stands that another customer brought and I refused to use.
Here's a picture of the good rotisserie.


http://www.autobodystore.com/3736.jpg http://www.autobodystore.com/3766.jpg http://www.autobodystore.com/0assembly5.jpghttp://www.autobodystore.com/finished4.jpg

[tech69]

Well got the cab off, the wood hoist beam worked great. Lifted at the upper door sills with a cherry picker engine hoist, that the beam setup was cross bolted to, center of gravity was right at the front seat mount beam in the floor for front and back CG.
The rotisery deal can be made from a couple of cheapy harbor freight engine stands lengthened up to allow the swing and the rotation made horizontal instead of at the angle they are at. And could be mounted either to the door openings via that upove idea, or a cradle that goes under to the cab mount points. It all shouldn't set ya back more than say 200 at the most for materials.

as long as it's stable and doesn't twist the body that's awesome.If there's a will there's a way.

You can have a car getting first prize in autorama that was built on crates. Then you can have a car that's built on a rotisserie that can only get first place in a car lot car show in the middle of nowhere cause the stubborn tech can't do bodywork. What works for you works for you and you'll know it. You can carve your niche however you want as long as it's within the guidelines of industry standard and you don't end up with a cab on your stomach. :)

I learned that most of the icar instructors know more book stuff than you can believe and after you see the same teacher at a couple testing sessions you'll admire them...til you see their work.lol The truth is the work, and time will tell whether your idea was bad or not.

[icrman]

I agree about the foot print of the engine stands. And that may need to be fixed, but the basic stuff it there to work with, and the cost is about the same as the materials and way cheaper than the fab work, a simple weld a wider bar is all it takes along with the moving up the upright post. I've dealt with things that weigh in the 40 ton range so a 500 to 600 pound cab if its that much is like a feather. ;) I can pick one side up, so it can't be too bad.
My biggest problem is the lack of space, I'd have to roll it outside before turning it and not sure yet if I have the height to even do that. We will see. It is sure nice to have the cab off to do the interior and front and rear windows.

[icrman]

To kneel on something besides the concrete is really important. I used knee pads for a while, they were kind of a pain, uncomfortable, you have to make an effort to put them on, so often they were ignored. I started making matts from the foam they wrap a new bumper in, that works good. A carpet like this from the trunk of a total are nice.
http://www.dragtimes.com/images-classifieds-large/TOYOTA-MATRIX-03-08-TRUNK-FLOOR-CARPET-MAT-CHARCOAL-OEM-for-sale_270699729303.jpg

I don't let a total leave the shop with one and have made sure every tech has one.

A quality creeper is a must. I have one of these Lisle low profile ones. They are the only way to fly if you ask me.
http://toolmonger.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/post-creeper.jpg

On that spot weld drilling, I am sorry but there is NO WAY I am going to work without a Spitsnagle spot weld drill.
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa167/BasicsofBasics/100_3944.jpg

There is simply NO WAY I am going to work without it. You can remove a spot weld with virtually zero cut into the metal below. You use next to zero effort because it's bit is pushed into the metal by air! You simply place the tool in place and pull the trigger and it does all the work for you. You dial in the depth to go and wham, you can drill hole after hole in perfection.

Start buying quality tools that save your back, you will be very thankful in twenty or thirty years.

Brian

Will that spot weld cutter work with out those clamps? As there would be no way to use them on the step area of these trucks???? Thanks

[MARTINSR]

Yes it will, however, if you open your mind a little big you find that there IS a way to get behind the weld 95% of the time. I don't know about the particular place you are talking about, but you can usually take an air chisel and cut away metal that you are going to be removing anyway and gain access for the spot weld drills clamp. I have removed floors and inner quarters and such that when first looking at it using the drill wouldn't work. Spot welds all the way out in the middle of the panel for instance. Then you start thinking about it and that panel is going to be removed and tossed anyway, so just cut away the panel and there you go, access to drill the welds with this tool.

There is NO WAY I would do this work everyday without it. I am amazed at the guys I watch at work using all kinds of tools that create more work and MUCH HARDER on the back (hunched over like a raped ape) work and spend their money buying all kinds of BS tools and tool boxes and carts and other BS instead of this tool. They will drill out a hundred welds on a floor with regular hand drill their arm must fall off by the end of the day. Or worse yet, grinding them with the die grinder throwing sparks all over the place and BREATHING all that metal! When this tool would get it done much faster and cleaner, I don't get it.

Brian

[icrman]

I guess you are very correct. So is the cutter flat with no little tit or what ever you'd call it?
And where do you get them at, for a reasonable cost?

[MARTINSR]

They have almost no pilot at all, nearly flat. On the good prices, I don't know, eBay maybe?

Brian