I am sick and tired of finishing film...

[Serge]

Anyone have a trick to eliminate or reduce the pigtails produced by finishing film? I am polishing a show car now and all I do it seems is running after pigtails...I am going back to wet sanding for high end vehicles...

In an effort to eliminate the dust factor in pigtails, I got finishing film for my dust collection sander (the ones with the holes). Well I'll be darned, it's worse! Because of the suction the vacuum makes and the seal provided by the film's fine texture the vacuum sucks the film down on the surface with too much pressure and pigtails almost instantly...

I wash the pannels with glass cleaner between grits and always tack rag the pannel before sanding to eliminate foreign dust or larger particles...and still I find pigtails when polishing...Just so anoying...

Any tricks?

Robert, do you use finishing film at all?

[Robert]

Serge,

Yes, I use it but the results vary like crazy. One car, the film cuts, not a pigtail in sight, the next, it's pill city and hardly worth the effort.

I've been playing around doing the middle or first cut with the machine and then cross cutting with 2000 and the results are very good. I'm still working on a different paper. I like the eagle stuff but it's almost impossible to get.

Take Care,
Robert

[bad buick]

I don't like them either. My cousin bought a sanding system called quick cut wet sanding system. It got the finish so flat with out scratches or pigtail I could not beleive it. He used 2000 grit one ste and on to buff. I went out and ordered on to use on my Daughters 26 buick roadster. I got it through www.quick cut sanders .com He said he cut his sanding time about 1/3 and uses less paper.

[Mike B]

http://www.quickcutsanders.com/

[bad buick]

I don't like them either. My cousin bought a sanding system called quick cut wet sanding system. It got the finish so flat with out scratches or pigtail I could not beleive it. He used 2000 grit one ste and on to buff. I went out and ordered on to use on my Daughters 26 buick roadster. I got it through www.quick cut sanders .com He said he cut his sanding time about 1/3 and uses less paper.

[bad buick]

thanks for the correction mike. have you checked the site out?

[Len]

It takes so much less time to use Finishing Film to level the surface I would think it would pay you to use it then give it the once over with a little wet paper to remove any pig tails. I use it all the time on high-end vehicles and don't see any problems unless I trap something between the film and the surface.

Power wet sanding (like the site that Mike B posted) has been available from Hutchins for several years but I don't see the advantage. You can't see your progress and it's a lot more hassle than dry plus you still run the risk of pig tails if you have contaminants. We can do an entire car in a couple hours using Finishing Film and an AirVantage, we may get a pig tail here and there but a little wet paper by hand quickly handles them.

[Henry]

Serge,

Yes, I use it but the results vary like crazy. One car, the film cuts, not a pigtail in sight, the next, it's pill city and hardly worth the effort.

I've been playing around doing the middle or first cut with the machine and then cross cutting with 2000 and the results are very good. I'm still working on a different paper. I like the eagle stuff but it's almost impossible to get.

Take Care,
Robert
Maybe Len can take a hint and do some work on Spray Painting 102 after seeing the old fart DA/wetsand on a shorty video!!!!
Robert, you could probably use some slowly running water over the panel I guess. ALSO, can ANYONE post a picture of what you are referring to as pig tail because I never have gotten it. I use 1200 only on my Hutchins. I wipe the paper and change it often. SERGE; what the hell are you doing? I thought you never had problems.
Oh by the way, ANY TRUE FINISH LEFT??? Thanks. Henry

[Serge]

Well, I don't know. Maybe it's the UFC35 that does not like finishing film. Darn, I put the film on the paint, move 2 ft and it starts to pigtail on me...At that rate, it would take 2 boxes to do the car...

This thing is a flow coated, urethane candy apple red 2004 tiburon...a work of darn art that will not finish...it just drags on and on and on and on...This is the last kandy I do on a tuner car...too much plastic on those things...all in kandy...darn it was a bitch to match all those parts...

Bah...tomorrow is another day...I am going to re-sand the doors and hood with 2K tomorrow and stop bitching about it...

[Len]

Using Glasurit paint I can get at least 5 big cars out of a box of Finishing Film.

[bad buick]

I watched the old fart video and found out that I could use one sanding step with 2000 grit and it sands fast. The quick cut system I bought is nothing like the hutch wet system. The interface pads the quick cut uses with sticky back paper is what does the trick. No velcro loops to cause pig tails.

[Warren]

I only used the finish film a few times and this may sound crazy but you have to get the crap off the car constantly. What I did was I ran it only for a few seconds then wiped the DA on my leg.

I work in jogging pants so every time I swiped it on my pant leg it was clean again. The car got wiped with a fluffy microfibre and was kept clean. Yes it took time to do that but the stuff went many times further.

The polisher I know here who came from where you live always wipes with glass cleaner and keeps the car immacualte. The golf I watched get done was done witn the Norton and it went well, not one squiggle on the car. The car is always cleaned before the next step.

Try cleaning off the dust and wipting the thing on your leg, know it sounds strange but it really did go way further,

I do the same on my stroke sander in the shop, if you do not have proper dust collection then you are just regrinding the dust into the belt and the wood. On the planer if the dust collection is not working and shavings are not getting away they can press right into the wood and leave marks from the rollers. Realize it is different stuff but the thought pattern is the same the crap has to be taken away or it gets in the way.


Warren













The Golf that Paul did with

[Serge]

But not this time...I am a very clean guy when I color sand. I use glass cleaner too and use a tack cloth to pick up all the debris. Its got to be the clear coat...Instead of wiping it on my leg, I use the previous paper's loop backing to wipe the paper, the loop side of the paper can pick up quite alot of dust...The funny thing is the ff with the dust collection is worse...the vacuum sucks the film on the surface and makes the pigtailling worse...

Anyway, this one car is getting done by hand on the week end...

[Robert]

Bad Buick,

I think the main feature of the quick cut is the water constantly running. I really like the different density interface pads. I've had to modify things to get that result so I'll probably get those if nothing else.

There's a lot of work going on in this area. Eagle has some good stuff, Norton, Indasa, and everyone else is looking for a better a way to deal with this. I'm going to try just using one of my sponges to provide water and see what happens.

This is a great thread.

Robert

[bad buick]

Robert: When I use my quick cut system I turn down the soap solution with the valve that is installed on the machine. You can adjust the flow so that it is minimal. I have very little excess liquid. The indasa wet paper I use is doing an excellent job and lasts and lasts. It is a psa sticky back paper 2000 grit

[Warren]

with Water I would give that Norton blue screen paper a try as well.

The only water on the car was misted on from a hand water bottle and there was no water on the floor or mess, minimal amount of sheets were used. he did use an interface pad but mostly cause he said the body was not up to his level to go without one.

It was his first time using and trying that stuff and he was quite happy with it.

Serge i thought you sounded like Paul in terms of cleanliness, he always talked about minimzing damage as he worked and yes had the glass cleaner just like you cleaning panels before working each one and inbetween all different steps.

Warren

[Warren]

I also think sometimes the paper with the air holes can make things worse cause you have a ton of little tiny edges there. They always have a potential to lift on an edge and cause damage. Just a thought.

Warren

[Serge]

Literally...I found I can't control the pressure I put on the surface too well as my vacuum is sucking the paper on the surface. You actually have to pull on the sander to lift it off the surface.

I guess the suction also makes the little edges of the holes rub the surface more as there must be the most suction around those holes. It looked like a good idea, but I get alot more mileage out of the no hole paper...

I like that wet sanding link...got me thinking...I have at least as much money in finishing film on my shelves than it costs to buy the system. I wish they sold just the system without the da...

What about Abralon? I normally use the 4000 after the finishing film, maybe I should buy the 2000...this soft pad does not cut though, it just polishes the surface...

[Dennis N. Schmidt]

OK Serge, here's the deal. The finishing film will tell you when it's about to pigtail if you watch the sanding action. if you see it pill you stop. Use a gold or white Scotchbrite pad (the finest) rub it accross the film to remove the pill and then go on.

If that doesn't work use it wet with a spritzer bottle. You don't need much water to get the job done, just a mist. One note of caution is that once you use a piece of finishing film wet you can never use it dry again since it will have had it's stearate removed by the water since they use a water based stearate film on these discs.

Any further questions send me a private message.

Denny Schmidt

[Dennis N. Schmidt]

Serge, another point. Cut down the amount of vacuum on your sander by putting a washer (fibre washer is best) between the pad and the sander. The amount of vacuum you want is when the pad continues to rotate but still picks up dust.

I tune all of my vacuum sanders this way. You don't want the vacuum too strong or you will stop the random motion of the sander turning it into a straight orbital. This could be the source of your pigtails.

I bought a bunch of different thickness fibre washers from Dynabrade for this specific purpose. You need to build the clearance until the vacuum is enough to get rid of the dirt but not too much to affect the action of the sander.

[Serge]

I'll give it a try wet...I have given up using it dry. On that clear it pills right away, one foot and that's it. Wet it might have a chance.

I have an entire week end of sanding and polishing ahead of me...I will let you know how I do...

[426wedge]

I use the quickcut sanding system too and it is like no other. In one way it works the paper they sell is sticky back and has no holes because it is not a through the pad system it comes out around the pad so you dont have the finger marks from the hook-n-loop paper, the water is adjustable so you don't go for a swim, the different pads they offer go from soft for radiused surfaces to firm for flat surfaces you can run the da at any speed so there is no 75 to 100% just for water to come out. This system is the best I have ever seen and it makes the surface flat using only 2000 grit paper. I can do a hood with two pieces of paper one for a quick run over to take off any debris the other to finish, and the paper still has life left. My buffing time has been cut also because it makes such a nice finish. I talked about this sander the other day but I had to chime in again about it because this system kicks the crap out of anything I've ever tried.
426wedge

[Len]

I'll give it a try wet...I have given up using it dry. On that clear it pills right away, one foot and that's it. Wet it might have a chance.

I have an entire week end of sanding and polishing ahead of me...I will let you know how I do...

Serge
It sounds like those holes may be hurting you. While using dry paper can generate some dust it doesn't float around that much, try it without the vacuum holes. Another factor could be soft paint and while I haven't had any problems with any paint I sand you may have a combination of factors that is causing your problem.

My big problem with wet sanding is not being able to see the surface as you sand and the need to constantly be wiping water from the surface. I use Mirka Abralon wet now and then but I do my cutting dry so that I can better control the result then give it a once over with Abralon on some high-end jobs or when the paint is really hard so that I have a finer scratch to polish out.

[426wedge]

len you should try the quickcut sander your whole opinion might change mine did.

[Len]

Do you think it's better than the Hutchins Waterbug? If so why? The Hutchins works well but it's still a wet process and you can't see what you're doing. One little mistake of sanding through a clear coat and I would be tossing it in the trash can. I've machine wet sanding methods with Mirka and Finishing Film but don't see the value OVER dry sanding.

Another question... How do you change stick-on disks when the pad and paper get wet? Does the stick-on paper stick to a wet pad? I use hook and loop paper for this reason when wet sanding.



http://autobodystore.net/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/HUT7544.jpg
Hutchins Waterbug Link (http://autobodystore.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=HUT7544&Category_Code=T)

[Warren]

try the norton stuff as well, from what I saw it worked great, 1500 grit, interface, little mess and no sand throughs or squiggles. Didnt take too many sheets to do the car. It was hand sanded after cause he wanted to massage a bit of the clear, used 2000 but said next time would use 2500 instead.

Warren

I used some of the paper in my shop on corion and it worked well, also 3M has a finish film for corion that is similar to the Norton, I ran regular finish film along side it and it burned out in five seconds or less the 3M for corion ran and ran, it cost a bit more buit there was no comparison. You sprinkle a mist of water like with the Norton stuff. I got the exact sheen I wanted with the finish film but it could not stand up to the hardness of the corion so could not use it on that material.

[Len]

Warren
Is the corion you're talking about the counter top material?

[426wedge]

Yes ,this tool kicks the crap out of the waterbug for these reasons: First, the waterbug has to be running for water to come out; Second, the velro back paper leaves finger marks which are a pain in the rear to buff out; Third, the water comes out under the pad so it hydoplanes, the paper sucks, you have to wait for the water to get to the pad, you can't change densitys of pads and as far as sticking paper on the quickcut sander: Come on, wipe the pad and stick another piece on, you know what? I dont know why I'm defending this tool but I guess your way is the best and I can't argue with that, keep on sanding
426wedge

[Warren]

I did some prototype work fto match some samples. I did the work but after you machine it you have to bring the finish back up, in this case I had to match the samples which were incosistent but could see they were aiming for the machined surface to be the same as the face surface it comes with that is not adding more gloss to it, I have buffed it as well and it looks more like granite.

Realize it was hard on the finish film as it is a harder material than a car finish and it is very abrasive, hard on cutters and bearings if it gets in. Was nice to work with the corion for a change, tonight birdseye maple, very pretty that mother nature.

With that Norton paper and the water misted Paul did wipe everyonce and a while to see but as much or more to keep clean, he can somehow see and he can feel as well. I can't believe how sensitive he is the to the whole sanding and polishing thing but he started at 12 years old and has done a massive amount in different aspects.

The times I used the finish film it worked well for me but again I did the swipin g on the leg thing every five seconds or so so I always was cleaning it off. I even use woodwork DA which are 3/16 throw so should have made it worse but it worked.

Warren

[Len]

Yes ,this tool kicks the crap out of the waterbug for these reasons: First, the waterbug has to be running for water to come out; Second, the velro back paper leaves finger marks which are a pain in the rear to buff out; Third, the water comes out under the pad so it hydoplanes, the paper sucks, you have to wait for the water to get to the pad, you can't change densitys of pads and as far as sticking paper on the quickcut sander: Come on, wipe the pad and stick another piece on, you know what? I dont know why I'm defending this tool but I guess your way is the best and I can't argue with that, keep on sanding
426wedge

I'm just trying to find out why you're so sold on this tool above all others and if you have the experience to evaluate the product.

As far as hook and loop showing a track or fingers I guess that may be another feature of polishing wet because it doesn't happen when I sand dry. I agree about the hydroplaning with water because as soon as you wet the surface this starts to happen no matter where the water is coming from. When I use water I normally spray it out of a pump spray bottle but it still makes the sander hydroplane.

Are you using the AirVantage sander as shown in the video or have they changed sanders? Which one do they use if not the AV.

I'm always interested in new products, it wasn't long ago that hand sanding was the only method but since Finishing Film hit the market there have been dozens of other products trying to get a share of the market some good and some not so good. Glad to hear you found a good one.

[426wedge]

I'm sold on this machine because it works and I no longer have to step up starting with 600 then 1000 then 2000 then 4000 mirka disks to get a high end finish or if I want to match factory peel I just put on my soft pad on in minutes it's matched. I only have to use 2000 grit paper but they offer 400-2500 grit paper and I get better results and use less paper not to mention the time I save, as far as hydroplaning it does not. I don't use the airvantage machine I use the gison machine they offer but I really don't think the sander matters it's the whole system they have come up that works. Didn't mean to get defensive, I can understand your point of view, you haven't tried this system yet.
426wedge

[Serge]

I guess that this psa paper is made by Indasa especially for them. I am curious about the system. The problem I have is probably caused by this clear coat that is quite flexible. It produces very sticky dust (I am in the speculation mode here) so a wet system with some soap as lubricant would make sense in this case.

I wonder if they sell the kits without the sander. I will probably try it...what the hell...I have tried crazier things...I also like the idea of the different pads.

[Robert]

Serge,

I have a hard time believing quick cut could be buying enough paper to justify a separate line, so I think they've just taken something off the shelf.

The problem of the hooks coming through the paper is addressed by using a shorter hook backing plate. The variable flex plates though is very interesting.

Because of this thread, when I was at a shop today, I tried my 5" Airvantage sander and using 800 grit paper with no backing plate cut a hood that was old paint and damaged to just see what the look would be. 800 followed by 1500 both on the machine, both wet with soapy water, low speed like the quick cut guys said and then polish. There were no hooks and the surface was very flat - though not as flat as it would have been if I'd cut a little more before I stopped. I stopped as soon as all the paint was dull, it takes a couple more passes to flatten further but there wasn't that much paint on the hood and I didn't want to go through the clear. Still, it came out better than most people would be able to see.

The problem I think of when I hear people saying that the paper goes a long way is that fresh really sharp paper cuts flatter than older paper because the older paper starts rolling over the surface not cutting. It's not just about speed of cut but the way the cut is happening that matters. That's why when I cut something I want really flat I burn through paper like it was free.

I could take a picture of some of the paint jobs I've polished - not to the highest degree - and they would look great. If you were there though, looking at the paint and moving back and forth, watching for ripple or "fat" you'd be able to see it. On the really high end stuff the ripple is supposed to be non-existent, so you move your head back and forth, look at the reflection and the reflection just moves but isn't distorted. Stupid good distinctness of image.

I like looking at the edge of fluorescent lights for flatness and spot lights for scratch and swirl, both against black backgrounds.

With all of us working on it, I'm sure eventually we'll come up with the best practices, which will last about as long as it takes to post, then we'll all move on, lol.

All the best,
Robert