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View Full Version : Did I get ripped off on paint? $50 for a pint of sh%$t



djenyc
09-22-2009, 10:18 AM
I got a pint of paint from a local auto paint shop to repaint hood and fender on an old Civic. They said I needed 2K BC/CC - so I paid $50 for a pint of base. It was going to be another $50 of $60 for a clear, so I just got the base and catalyst (4:1). It seemed like a lot, but I figured this stuff was better than going to home depot and asking them to color match some rustoleum.

So 2 weeks ago I finished priming (Kirker 2K Rapid Prime) and sprayed the first coat of base. Went on fine, though had a couple runs on the fender and it was a bit thin in a couple spots. I was spraying with 1.0 mm touch up gun so had it reduced with 10% urethane reducer. This past weekend I sanded out a couple runs and was getting ready to spray the second coat of base.

Before painting I was gonna do a wipe down. Just lightly spray a bit of acetone from a spray bottle and QUICKLY wipe off with a cloth. I did it on a few paint jobs before, never a prob. But with this paint - it WIPED RIGHT OFF LIKE PEANUT BUTTER!!!!

What a heck is wrong with this paint???? Can't take a split sec of acetone????? It's not like I hosed it with solvent and let it puddle and sit for an hour.... I thought this 2K paints were supposed to be tough, did my jobber rip me off??? For the price I paid for a pint of this crap, I could have gotten like 2 gallons of alkyd enamel at the local hardware store that they were even gonna color match and it would be tougher I'm sure.

2K paints aren't suppose to just wipe off like that, is that right??

RockinRob
09-22-2009, 10:30 AM
what brand of paint - what are the numbers on the can?

why did you use acetone?

Bob K
09-22-2009, 10:37 AM
You need to apply clear coat immediately after the base coat. They arenít meant to be used separately. Base has no ability to live in the real world uncovered. Clear coat is an integral part of the combination. There is a short window of time when the clear must be applied. As I understand it, the base is partially dissolved by the application of clear and they bond together at the time the clear is applied. If the base is not fresh then the bond is compromised.

Bob K

Choppers_rule
09-22-2009, 10:43 AM
I pay around $50/ pint for PPG DBC and they are tough paint!

djenyc
09-22-2009, 10:50 AM
what brand of paint - what are the numbers on the can?

why did you use acetone?

Hey, don't know what brand, they put catalyst and base in to plain cans and said it was 2K and said to mix it 4:1. I did not think I'd have a problem, as this shop wasn't like a retail store, they mostly cater to local body shops. I got there a couple hours before closing and they had a few local painter hanging around with beers in their hands so I thought that place was legit.

And I use acetone cause it dries quick so I know there is not going to be a problem later. But apparently this paint is as tough as household latex, so ended up using mineral spirits, which I guess is fine, but takes a while to dry.

djenyc
09-22-2009, 11:01 AM
You need to apply clear coat immediately after the base coat. They arenít meant to be used separately. Base has no ability to live in the real world uncovered. Clear coat is an integral part of the combination. There is a short window of time when the clear must be applied. As I understand it, the base is partially dissolved by the application of clear and they bond together at the time the clear is applied. If the base is not fresh then the bond is compromised.
Bob K

Well, may be that's a problem. Dunno. Can somebody confirm that?

I always thought that clear was just for people who don't have a buffer or don't like to use it for some reason.

another2centsworth
09-22-2009, 11:27 AM
What did your paint supplier say about all of this stuff you were doing and how you were going about it?
Ask him for instruction sheets on the base and clear.

SamG
09-22-2009, 11:51 AM
No, you should find the tech sheets for your product and read them.

Basecoat is only a colorant. It is not designed to be sanded, wiped with wax/grease remover (certainly not acetone), buffed, or anything else...You spray it on until you have adequate coverage, then apply clearcoat. The clearcoat is the gloss.

Years ago, there were basecoat additives that went into say, Centari A/E that made it a basecoat and allowed you to apply an A/E clearcoat on top of it (#780 if I remember correctly). That Centari basecoat was just a modified Acrylic Enamel...You could also do the same with lacquer basecoats/clearcoats...however, Today's basecoats are totally different technologies

djenyc
09-22-2009, 12:45 PM
No, you should find the tech sheets for your product and read them.

Basecoat is only a colorant. It is not designed to be sanded, wiped with wax/grease remover (certainly not acetone), buffed, or anything else...You spray it on until you have adequate coverage, then apply clearcoat. The clearcoat is the gloss.

Years ago, there were basecoat additives that went into say, Centari A/E that made it a basecoat and allowed you to apply an A/E clearcoat on top of it (#780 if I remember correctly). That Centari basecoat was just a modified Acrylic Enamel...You could also do the same with lacquer basecoats/clearcoats...however, Today's basecoats are totally different technologies

Ah, now that makes sense!

I actually told the jobber I wanted single stage, but this guys are anal about things like that, and would only go by what teh computer told em, so it said BC/CC for honda, so they'd only do BC/CC, no single stage.

I also wanted them to mix some pearl paint for a lincoln mark 8, and they said that thing was 3 different paints, 2 base, 1 clear, wtf, would run like 170 bucks to do touchup, can't they just try and get it close, I'm not picky about that sort of things, but NOOO. So ended up just using some white zero rust on that lincoln, and it actually came out good, and was not even color matched or anything

But you make a good point that base coat is probably just a part of some paint system that kinda weak on it's own, so I gotta look for supplier that just do single stage and doesn't blow me off like that plus charge insane dollars. I don't do restoration car, just spray some beaters, i don't even level dent or anything, just lay some paint and it looks just as good as the next car in the parking lot, and I did not have to pay 20k for it, lol

another2centsworth
09-22-2009, 01:07 PM
These need to be shot base/clear not single stage.

Pearls are are usually three stage......base coat/midcoat/clear (tri-color)

Not everybody is trying to pull one over on you.

djenyc
09-22-2009, 02:34 PM
These need to be shot base/clear not single stage.

Pearls are are usually three stage......base coat/midcoat/clear (tri-color)

Not everybody is trying to pull one over on you.

Ye, I get it now that they were not pulling one, just not willing to cater to my price/quality requirement - offered me a quality level set by local collision shops that do insurance repairs on late model cars, that's not effective for a low end budget repair. In the end I did get my hood painted for 50 bucks and it's color matched and looks decent, as I buffed it good. But I was surprised that it would lift up like that from a bit of acetone heh, So I got another old beater I gotta do some touch-up and wheel arches on, so I'll have to look around see who can mix it single stage

Dave C
09-22-2009, 05:19 PM
Acetone is nasty stuff, probably the most active solvent in my shop. It's the only thing that cleans fiberglass resin off tools. Wiping base coats, if done at all, should be with a very mild solvent like R-M 901.

djenyc
09-23-2009, 10:11 AM
Acetone is nasty stuff, probably the most active solvent in my shop. It's the only thing that cleans fiberglass resin off tools. Wiping base coats, if done at all, should be with a very mild solvent like R-M 901.

So you saying don't use acetone?

- I'm going back and forth in circle here, cause I used to use mineral spirits for the longest time and then I read an article that said it takes a while for it to dry, being that it's slow evaporating, and that guy in the article said how he'd get spots in his paint from mineral spirits not fully evaporating before the paint gets sprayed. So I switched to acetone, as I know it dryes really fast and I don't like to sit and wait around for stuff to dry. And also I read in another place that all this 2k products suppose to be tough once cured and don't get dissolved in anything like those enamels do, so I thought acetone would be ok because of that. But now seeing that I get a problem with it, so may be I'll go back to mineral spirits and just hit it with a hair dryer or something.

Len
09-23-2009, 10:23 AM
Prior to spraying paint the surface should be wiped with grease and wax remover. Once the spraying starts there should be no need to wipe the surface unless there is some type of problem.

djenyc
09-23-2009, 10:58 AM
Prior to spraying paint the surface should be wiped with grease and wax remover. Once the spraying starts there should be no need to wipe the surface unless there is some type of problem.

Yes, grease and wax remover before spraying - that's what I used acetone for, cause it dries quick and cleans good, but as I said, I'll be switching back to mineral spirits, seeing that acetone gets a bit crazy with some paints

Bob K
09-23-2009, 12:40 PM
You don’t want it to dry quick. That defeats the purpose of cleaning. For removing contaminants you want them dissolved in the cleaner and then be in the cleaner when you absorb it off in a clean dry paper towel that you then dispose of. I use four or five towels on a hood for example. I spray w&g remover on about a third of the hood then take a 12x12 paper towel folded I half and make one pass down the edge of the hood then flip it over and make another pass along side the first one. At that point I throw the towel and quickly get another and continue until I reach the edge of my spray area. At that time I spray more w&g remover next to where I have been working and do the wipe down again.

When we say “wax and grease remover” we are not referring to any old solvent that will dissolve them. We are referring to a dedicated product named Wax and Grease Remover. There are several out there and most paint manufacturers have one.

It is best to use the product that is made for that purpose so you don’t inadvertently use a product that leaves a residue on your car. That could result in you putting a layer of contaminate down that may act as a release agent in the future. If you just use one rag to wipe the car down with, then you are just spreading the contaminant around and not removing it.

The towels I used for one pass get thrown on the floor under my paint table where they dry in a few minutes. When I am done painting I use them to mop up the paint in my paint mixing cup and paint gun before I get clean solvent out for final clean up.

Bob K

88GT
09-23-2009, 08:02 PM
Yes, grease and wax remover before spraying - that's what I used acetone for, cause it dries quick and cleans good, but as I said, I'll be switching back to mineral spirits, seeing that acetone gets a bit crazy with some paints
why not just use wax and grease remover? Thats what its for. and its dirt cheap

djenyc
09-23-2009, 09:50 PM
why not just use wax and grease remover? Thats what its for. and its dirt cheap

Well, you guys bring a good point on why not get teh stuff dedicated for the job, and I'm very well aware that such products exists and are available for not a lot of dough. So, the reason I use generic cleaners, is that I already have them on hand and using for different tasks and while one more can on the shelf is not gonna kill me, I do try to pair down my materials stock as much as possible and only keep what's totally necessary, because I don't just do car paint but a lot of other things, so if I'm doing boat stuff today, and then stuff on my bike and then some woodworking, keeping complete systems for each thing with all the one-off items becomes an issue, and storage is the biggest, as I keep all this stuff at my parents house and they get mad when I try and take more space, so I just research and look in to what components are and try to go from where.

But don't get me wrong I don't advocate hack jobs cause for sure some things you gotta go get from the same manufacturer, like I would not use hardener from one brand with another paint, unless it was some simple boat resin or something, but as far as cleaners and stuff, I'd try and substitute, where I can, just so I would not have to keep 20 different cleaners, and prep supplies and go crazy trying to figure what goes with what and trying to store it all as I don't use it all at once and get so many leftovers that organizing it all become a job in itself. So I try and use some judgment, listen to what you guys are saying, and keep that knowledge in mind as well.

kevininohio
09-23-2009, 10:38 PM
If it really doesn't matter as you seem to be saying why not just take the car to your local $299.99 paint house and let them do it. In the long run you'd be ahead and take no space up at your Mom and Dads. Win/Win right?

Phil V
09-23-2009, 11:24 PM
I get the feeling DJENC is having a little fun at the expense of this boards members. And if he is for real then automotive painting is a concept that is way out of his league and better left to someone else.

88GT
09-24-2009, 07:17 AM
Well, you guys bring a good point on why not get teh stuff dedicated for the job, and I'm very well aware that such products exists and are available for not a lot of dough. So, the reason I use generic cleaners, is that I already have them on hand and using for different tasks and while one more can on the shelf is not gonna kill me, I do try to pair down my materials stock as much as possible and only keep what's totally necessary, because I don't just do car paint but a lot of other things, so if I'm doing boat stuff today, and then stuff on my bike and then some woodworking, keeping complete systems for each thing with all the one-off items becomes an issue, and storage is the biggest, as I keep all this stuff at my parents house and they get mad when I try and take more space, so I just research and look in to what components are and try to go from where.

But don't get me wrong I don't advocate hack jobs cause for sure some things you gotta go get from the same manufacturer, like I would not use hardener from one brand with another paint, unless it was some simple boat resin or something, but as far as cleaners and stuff, I'd try and substitute, where I can, just so I would not have to keep 20 different cleaners, and prep supplies and go crazy trying to figure what goes with what and trying to store it all as I don't use it all at once and get so many leftovers that organizing it all become a job in itself. So I try and use some judgment, listen to what you guys are saying, and keep that knowledge in mind as well.
cool. get rid of the accetone and paint thinner and keep wax and grease remover on hand:)

djenyc
09-24-2009, 09:17 AM
If it really doesn't matter as you seem to be saying why not just take the car to your local $299.99 paint house and let them do it. In the long run you'd be ahead and take no space up at your Mom and Dads. Win/Win right?

You'd probably laugh but I did try to bring my car to local Maacoo a few months ago, cause I was getting fed up having everybody yelling at me about the noise and fumes whenever I try to do something. So I went by Maacoo place but they had a note on the door from Commissioner of repair division saying that they shut them down for some violations. Don't know if that was because they did not do a good job, or just did not get along, but now I don't have any option for a place that's cheap other then do it myself, so I just wait till my folks go out of town and do it in their garage and then try to air out their house real good so they don't get mad. I did think about renting an industrial unit at one time, but they wanted like 300 buck for it every month, which would add up quick, so I'm just glad that I got a compressor and at least some place to spray unlike those guys that do it with rollers and paint brushes outside with rustolem, that must really suck to have to do ten coats and having to color sand each one. For me it's quick spray and DONE.

djenyc
09-24-2009, 09:36 AM
I get the feeling DJENC is having a little fun at the expense of this boards members. And if he is for real then automotive painting is a concept that is way out of his league and better left to someone else.

Man, why the hating, not everybody is well off and can do stuff by the book you know, or just thinking outside the box. Like a few years back I wanted to get a boat and everybody said I have to have a truck to tow, cause I'd blow the tranny and my car would not pull it, but I thought about it and put a tranny cooler and beefed up the springs a little, and had some serving and wheels slipping but nothing bad, and that setup worked fine for many years.

And why do you think I can't do painting, I said I've been doing it for many years and it's not show quality stuff that I do, but I get old cars to look good so most people would think it was fairly new. And this was my first time with bc/cc, so I thought that I got ripped off so guys here explained to me what happened, and I'm thankful for that, and I'm ready to listen and learn new trick and do things differently if there is a good reason, so don't think I'm just stuck in my ways or something

Phil V
09-24-2009, 10:05 AM
Hate ? Hell, I thought I was being kind. Hate is powerful emotion that I have neither the want nor the need or the time to be involved in, and it sure wouldn't be the correct emotion in your scenario. Indifference would be a more correct way of putting it. Just for future reference - I have paid over a hundred dollars on several occaisions for a pint of automotive paint and it was not a special color or a custom color. Just a normal 2 stage factory red metallic.

I have been doing top quality auto body and paint work for close to 40 years as a profession so its difficult for me to advise someone on how to cobble a paint job. So in the future I will step back and let others answer your posts.

kevininohio
09-24-2009, 10:51 AM
You'd probably laugh but I did try to bring my car to local Maacoo a few months ago, cause I was getting fed up having everybody yelling at me about the noise and fumes whenever I try to do something. So I went by Maacoo place but they had a note on the door from Commissioner of repair division saying that they shut them down for some violations. Don't know if that was because they did not do a good job, or just did not get along, but now I don't have any option for a place that's cheap other then do it myself, so I just wait till my folks go out of town and do it in their garage and then try to air out their house real good so they don't get mad. I did think about renting an industrial unit at one time, but they wanted like 300 buck for it every month, which would add up quick, so I'm just glad that I got a compressor and at least some place to spray unlike those guys that do it with rollers and paint brushes outside with rustolem, that must really suck to have to do ten coats and having to color sand each one. For me it's quick spray and DONE.

Laugh? You'd be ahead to go to another town and find another shop that doesn't have a note on the door. You'll have close to $200.00 (paint, thinner, tape, sandpaper,etc) in supplies even if you buy cheap tractor paint at your local Ag store. Take an odd job for 2 days and your ahead allready. IF your goal is just to flip the rig. I can't do that kind of stuff with my work and that is why I don't flip cars, I couldn't justify the time involved with the net.

That would be the best Mother's day present you could give your Mom so she doesn't have a reminder of you with every breathe she tries to take.

Len
09-24-2009, 11:00 AM
You'd probably laugh but I did try to bring my car to local Maacoo a few months ago, cause I was getting fed up having everybody yelling at me about the noise and fumes whenever I try to do something. So I went by Maacoo place but they had a note on the door from Commissioner of repair division saying that they shut them down for some violations. Don't know if that was because they did not do a good job, or just did not get along, but now I don't have any option for a place that's cheap other then do it myself, so I just wait till my folks go out of town and do it in their garage and then try to air out their house real good so they don't get mad. I did think about renting an industrial unit at one time, but they wanted like 300 buck for it every month, which would add up quick, so I'm just glad that I got a compressor and at least some place to spray unlike those guys that do it with rollers and paint brushes outside with rustolem, that must really suck to have to do ten coats and having to color sand each one. For me it's quick spray and DONE.

There are a lot of levels of paint work, from the brush to the custom multi-stage expensive work. Most folks look at a $2K or $3K paint job and realize they can do the same job better for less money and have all the tools to do another for even less money. If you're trying to do a job at home for less than $500 it can be done but it's usually better to find a Maaco-type operation that will do the work and save you the labor, the over spray and health risks that go along with spraying paint.

The Maaco near you that was closed was not because of "quality" issues, the law doesn't care about quality, it was probably because of code or OSHA problems.

terranaut
09-24-2009, 04:45 PM
It sounds like the OP might be happiest with whats bragged about on the Internet as the "$50 paint job". Sometimes its $75. Inflation...There is the mother thread on this topic on some MOPAR list but the OP can do a google.

Here's the deal in a nutshell. Get some polyurethane paint from Home Depot or a marine boat supplier (some rustoleum product used to be the hot ticket but there's another marine paint that has knocked Rust-O off its throne in this crowd) Knock the bird droppings off your car (if you want) and using a roller, apply 4-5 coats of paint (very much thinned apparently). When dry, wet sand and buff out. Seems to give credible results for a beater car. Labor intensive but material cheap. Sounds perfect for the OP. Forget about metalic or paint matching, just pick one of the solid colors they offer and go to town painting the entire car,... windows and tires too if you like the aesthetic of the Demo derby car. :D

djenyc
09-25-2009, 11:23 AM
It sounds like the OP might be happiest with whats bragged about on the Internet as the "$50 paint job". the bird droppings off your car (if you want) and using a roller, apply 4-5 coats of paint (very much thinned apparently). When dry, wet sand and buff out. Seems to give credible results for a beater car. Labor intensive but material cheap. Sounds perfect for the OP. Forget about metalic or paint matching, just pick one of the solid colors they offer and go to town painting the entire car,... :D

Hey, I know what you talking about - A TON OF WORK.

Block sand, mask, paint, let it dry - and do that all over 5 or 10 times swingin brush till you hand falls off lol, And it's not color matched, so now you doing the trunk and doors and engine compartment and such. That would take like 3 months just doing the paint, yeah not falling for that. May be good for somebody who's got a lot of time on their hands and not a lot of dough, or nothing better to do. It's not like I'm broke or anything

Here are couple pics of how it looked before I got it, so you can see what I'm talking about. This weekend I'll try to do wax and wash and snap a few pics on how it came out.

So I did the fender and the hood and the rear arches and the paint was 50 bucks for a pint like I said which I thought was a lot, and I was not happy that it lifts up from acetone, but it's done and looks a million times better, and I did not put more then a few hours in the whole thing.

And now I can drive it down the street and park at work and not get laughed at and it'd be easy to move, if I want to sell. And is the car holds up good and the motor doesn't blow or something, in a couple years I might give it a bit of love and weld in rear arches, and pull out dents, and do a better paint job. Those candy orange colors are starting to grow on me :)

terranaut
09-25-2009, 03:46 PM
Dude, you didn't say it was a VX! Thats worth saving. Or do you just have VX wheels? :chainsaw: :rockin:

djenyc
09-25-2009, 07:18 PM
Dude, you didn't say it was a VX! Thats worth saving. Or do you just have VX wheels? :chainsaw: :rockin:

Haha, yes it is a VX, can't believe somebody would guess it just from the wheels, wow you guys are good about picking on things like that :) I've had it for a year, good commuter and what it gets for millage is simply amazing, so I'm doing a little body work here and there, but not all at once, just a little at a time.