ISO gases are the sweet smell when painting

[dusty-ole-spraygun]

my grandfather was mustard gassed in France during WWI, by the Germans- he was in the artillery. He said they had to piss in their handkerchiefs and ties it around their mouth/nose, because they had no gas masks. He survived.

poisonous iso cyanide gases have a sweet smell- the truth is, not everyone can smell them- which leads to the myth they are "odorless"

that sweet smell when painting ? that is an ISO-type gas, being released as the solvents and catalyst are reacting and evaporating

see it here

http://www.slate.com/id/2148198/?nav=fix

Does Poison Gas Smell Good?
The blister agents have a fine bouquet.
By Daniel Engber

A second death-penalty trial for Saddam Hussein began on Monday, this time for the 1988 massacre of thousands of Kurdish villagers. Survivors accuse Hussein's troops of using chemical weapons in the attacks. "There was greenish smoke," said a witness for the prosecution, "and minutes later, a smell like rotten apples or garlic." Another survivor described a chemical agent that smelled like perfume. Wait, can poison gas really smell that good?

In particular, mustard gas has a rather nice aroma. Gas victims from World War I recalled a sweet and spicy scent that brought to mind lilacs, garlic, horseradish, onions, or—you guessed it—mustard. In its yellow-brown liquid form, sulfur mustard doesn't smell like anything; the characteristic sweet aroma develops only as it evaporates.

Perhaps you'd like to wash down your poison gas with a draft of liquid explosives? Or maybe you'd prefer a nip of polluted floodwater? Careful, even odorless helium can kill you.In general, "blister agents" like mustard gas smell pretty good. Another blister agent developed around the time of the First World War, lewisite, smells intensely of geraniums. A blister agent called phosgene oxime has an unpleasant, irritating smell—but with hints of freshly mown hay. The related diphosgene smells like anise.

"Blood agents," which incapacitate or destroy your blood cells, come in a variety of flavors. The bitter-almond smell of the hydrogen cyanide in Zyklon B permeated the gas chambers at the Nazi death camps in the 1940s. (Not everyone notices the nutty aroma.) Hydrogen sulfide gives off a whiff of rotten eggs. Deadly arsine has the scent of garlic.

[dusty-ole-spraygun]

if you're watching the other thread on urethane, I had the first 2 symptoms listed below, while spraying urethane paint outside, with a half mask and new charcoal filters- I would walk inside only to mix more paint, with garage door open- today I have irritation of upper breathing tract, some mucous coughing up, and hoarse voice. Early in the AM while in bed, had some slight chest pain/heaviness in chest. I had a slight ache behind eyes/temples from day one, each time spraying this paint, that I never had with any other paint. The ache would go away later that day/next day. I've sprayed this paint outside now 3 times, with days off between. Not all cyanides and poisonous gases are odorless, there are variations that have sweet smells, etc.- per previous post. I've talked to other painters who concur with what I believe, the sweet smell with catalyzed paints, is the ISO's being released as the paint evaporates off the car. What is surprising is the level that is toxic- only 35 ppm affects a human being, at100 ppm you're unconscious- and without medical attention you will die with 100 ppm. 300 ppm, you're dead in minutes. PPM means parts per million, so we are talking very, very minute amounts needed to hurt or kill you.

this is not anything to be messing around with- no car or paint job is worth the risk- charcoal cartidges obviously don't work 100%, as I found out first hand yesterday. If I can feel those effects painting outside, imagine if I was in a garage with door closed, doing a "nice" paint job. I may not be here now.

this is an issue where I agree with board owner Len 100%- actually I'm going out of my way to support and soup up his statements about supplied air masks. This issue has been way understated in the painting industry ! If you're going to spray iso paints, buy a hobby air or better breathing apparatus. If not, then don't use catalyzed paints. It only takes one different paint with a different evaporation rate and slightly higher ISO output, to kill you- or perhaps a temperature inversion where air is not being moved away quickly- which is part of what happened yesterday to me. We had a humid overcast move in, and there was no wind. Some ISO paints seem to put out more iso's than other ISO paints- I've been around ISO paints since 1984 as an occasional user, and this is the first time I had effects like recently. I'm passing this info on so any other hobbyists don't get into trouble- and let there be no doubt, a brand new charcoal mask is NOT enough protection- yesterday for a few moments I actually felt like I may pass out while walking on my feet, the feeling that I was being overcome by the fumes-and I had my mask on.


"What does cyanide do in the body?
In case of cyanide poisoning, there is enough oxygen in the blood, but the body is unable to use it. The enzymes that should have delivered it to all kinds of energy processes in the body cells have ceased to work. It is like starving in a pile of food. As the cells are no longer supplied with oxygen, they die quickly. Symptoms of cyanide poisoning are: headache, dizziness, nausea, vomiting, painful spasms, fast breathing, anxiety, unconsciousness, coma and death. A concentration of 35 ppm leads to a slight irritation of the upper respiratory track and mucous membranes. A concentration of 100 ppm leads to unconsciousness and heavy spasms, and the victim's breath has a strong smell of bitter almonds. If victims do not receive immediate medical care, they will die within half an hour. A concentration of 300 ppm will kill a victim within minutes."

[dusty-ole-spraygun]

one antidote to keep around- glucose tablets- I did notice when I drank some coffee with milk, and ate a bowl of soup, I felt better initially- it would even be a good idea to take a few glucose tablets before spraying a car with urethanes


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanide_poisoning#Treatment_of_poisoning_and_antid otes

Acute poisoning
Inhalation of high concentrations of cyanide causes a coma with seizures, apnea and cardiac arrest, with death following in a matter of minutes. At lower doses, loss of consciousness may be preceded by general weakness, giddiness, headaches, vertigo, confusion, and perceived difficulty in breathing. At the first stages of unconsciousness, breathing is often sufficient or even rapid, although the state of the victim progresses towards a deep coma, sometimes accompanied by pulmonary edema, and finally cardiac arrest. Skin colour goes pink from high blood oxygen saturation.


[edit] Chronic exposure
Exposure to lower levels of cyanide over a long period (e.g., after use of cassava roots as a primary food source in tropical Africa) results in increased blood cyanide levels, which can result in weakness and a variety of symptoms, including permanent paralysis


It has also been anecdotally suggested that glucose is itself an effective counteragent to cyanide, reacting with it to form less toxic compounds that can be eliminated by the body. One theory on the apparent immunity of Grigory Rasputin to cyanide was that his killers put the poison in sweet pastries and madeira wine, both of which are rich in sugar; thus, Rasputin would have been administered the poison together with massive quantities of antidote. One study found a reduction in cyanide toxicity in mice when the cyanide was first mixed with glucose[3]. However, as yet glucose on its own is not an officially acknowledged antidote to cyanide poisoning.

[BradNes1]

Dusty Isocyanates have no smell, and isocyanides (which are completely different) have absolutely nothing to do with any of the painting the people on this board deal with.

[dusty-ole-spraygun]

no, it's not that they have no smell, it's just that some people can't smell them-

[e-tek]

Now we know "The Real Story" of Dusty and his SprayGun....:rolleyes:

This your brain...this is your brain after isocyanate exposure...this is Dusty's brain....can you dust it off...not likely.;)

First sign of brain damage - excessive copying and posting from the 'net!:)

[dusty-ole-spraygun]

this from the guy with a 1971 Datsun in his signature...
(laughter...)

my brother in law had one of those 240Z's one time

then he got a job, the paychecks started rolling in every week...

I think he junked it...:D

do any of those cars actually make any power ?

[fireboat]

I will agree with Dusty on one point, it is appropriate to remind new painters just getting into the hobby of iso's. Not to scare anyone away, but to inform them.

Jobbers certainly will not say anything to an obvious neophyte painter, they just want to make a sale. I'm not saying they should legally as we need to be repsonsible for our own actions. But, I think a lot of people don't know how serious the risk is.

Also, it seems like a lot of people get into this hobby on a budget but don't figure in the cost of a fresh air system. My feeling is if you can't afford the safety equipement, then don't paint until you can.


So some first hand reports like Dusty's may get the message across.

[dusty-ole-spraygun]

the "urban legend" that "all" iso's have no smell is false- the type of iso in the paint I just sprayed this week, has a known smell- see below

this type is called "HDI" or diisocyanate hexane, also carries the numerical name "1.6"- among other names it has. Take my advice, if the hardener in your paint lists this ingredient, don't spray it with a charcoal mask, even if the filters are new. Use a supplied air mask. Some hardeners are worse than others, this one is particularly nasty- it emits gases long after being sprayed on the car- this is the one that when I pulled the car back in the garage after painting it outside, just the car sitting in the garage drying made me dizzy, and I had my mask on with new filters- and also just being downwind from painted parts while cleaning my gun outside, made it hard to breathe and I was gagging- I'm posting this info here because the other thread won't accept replies

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/phs120.html

1.1 What is HDI?
HDI is the common name for hexamethylene diisocyanate. It is also known as 1,6-hexamethylene diisocyanate, 1,6-diisocyanatohexane, Mondur HX, and Desmodur H. It is a pale yellow liquid with a strong odor. HDI is found in hardening agents for automobile paints.

[dusty-ole-spraygun]

I'm also posting this here, because other thread won't accept replies- it has come to my attention that 3M is telling painters their charcoal mask with 6001 filters and prefilters will work against iso paints- I found out first hand it won't- 3 days now I'm feeling effects of iso paints from Monday to now

going online to a 3M respirator chart from a vendor specifically shows that the 6001 cartridge is no good for iso paints- yet the 3M reps tell me it is- using the reps advice I tried it and regretted it

LEN is 100% correct in all respects- with urethane/iso catalyst paints, the only safe way, is supplied air mask don't even try the charcoal cartridge, if you fellas reading this knew how lousy I have felt the past 3 days, you'd never try to paint urethane with a charcoal mask- the effects are long lasting and only go away gradually- as of right now, my hands/forearms are still slightly numb/tingling, my throat is hoarse, and my vision is still not 100% right, and I feel rundown and tired- eating/drinking anything with sugar helps- talking to another painter who went to doctor twice for this, he said what the iso's do long term is create a hypoglycemic condition in your blood, by robbing the sugar and lowering your blood sugar level- I have short term effects of raw throat, chest tightness

3M just sent me an email saying the half mask w/charcoal cartridges will work ok for iso paints- how's this for contradicting information

see email below from 3M- now who's telling the truth here ? from my experience, I know what happened to me- the charcoal mask is not enough protection- so I asked this guy at 3M, did he personally use this half mask to spray ISO paints in a booth ? didn't get an answer to that one yet- but I have told this rep that what he is doing, is borderline criminal negligence, and may end up hurting someone badly some day- notice how 3M rep says no specific time limit on filters- when the paint MSDS sheet says 1 hour

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: Re: respirator/cartridges for spraying urethane paints w/isocyanate hardeners

> Sorry to hear of your experience. The respirator assembly that you
> purchased from Lowes (3M R6211/R6311?) is commonly used for paint spray
> applications, including urethanes containing isocyanate compounds. Both
> vapors and mists from the coating should be filtered within the performance
> specifications and use limitations of the respirator assembly, which
> include the 6000 Half Facepiece, 6001 Organic Vapor Cartridge, 5P71 P95
> Prefilter and 501 Retainer. The 3M 6000 Series Half Facepiece Respirator
> offers protection up to 10X the occupational exposure limit (OSHA PEL). The
> cartridge and filter service life depends on your use conditions. including
> the air concentrations for the components in the paint. There are no
> specific time use limitations for use of the cartridge and filter.

[MARTINSR]

http://bestsmileys.com/clueless/1.gif

[Len]

http://bestsmileys.com/clueless/7.gif

[showcar]

I remember posting about this with my old account and I feel the same as the original poster. Supplied air all the way.

Alot of the painters I've worked with use charcoals, and they don't swap them out as often as they should. A couple of them have twitches.


Damn, I'm gonna order some filters for my north half mask tonight!!!

I'm hoping mx 243 doesn't have isos, but I don't think so. I didn't see anything in the msd.

great post btw.

[All Dry]

Lets see...3M Spends billions of dollars on product development including elaborate safety protocols and volumes of scientific data produced by P.H.D researchers from the best schools in the U.S and we are not supposed to believe them?Those types of masks are not only lab tested but they also have been tested in real life use for years.Due to the signifigant liability exposure to 3M and their attractive deep pockets from a lawyers perspective I dont think they are making faulty products. Mike

[Phil V]

BULLSHIT Dusty! I've been on this site for 10 years and at least once a year we get into this same discussion about Iso's and charcoal masks. Dusty ---- you are NOT re-inventing the wheel here. This discussion has been beat to death from every angle and the bottom line that we all agree on is that charcoal painters masks ARE safe to spray iso based if the masks are use properly. Everyone (me included) recommends a fresh air breathing system for spraying ANY kind of paint but dual charcoal filter painters masks ARE safe to use when used properly. Just to dispel more myths that you are concocting - the iso based hardener in Imron is the basically the SAME chemical hardener used with all other urethane based paints, imron just used a little more hardener than the current urethanes we use.

Lets be honest here - you getting sick for three days after shooting some paint OUTSIDE with a supposedly fresh cannister painters mask is just plain ridiculous. NO ONE gets sick under those circumstances, NOT EVEN YOU. You probably had a touch of the flu or you were psychosomatically making up the symtoms of you "illness" as you went along. I've sprayed paint for close to 40 years with dual charcoal painters masks and I have been around literally hundreds of other professional bodymen/painters who have used the same masks. the ONLY people who had problems with iso based paints are those guys that INTENTIONALLY allowed themselves to come in direct contact with iso based paints with NO LUNG PROTECTION AT ALL. The made dumb ass decisions and they suffered the consequences. Dual cannister painters masks ARE SAFE to use when spraying iso based paints when the masks are used properly.

[showcar]

Are you sure these tests are specific to autobody paints/ isos?

I've read an interesting article about this. I don't think the lacquor sniff test is sufficient. :D

[alaskajeff]

Dusty, do you have a beard?

[MARTINSR]

Phil there is a such thing as "Iso-sensitivity" where even a tiny exposure will get you sick, Dusty may very well have that condition.

I have a personal friend, probably the best painter I have ever seen, have to walk away from painting. This was about 20 years ago, he couldn't even be in the same room where paint is being mixed.

On the whole respirator debate I have to say it is very simple to me. And I will put it this way:

If everyone who sprays paint were to use a charcoal respirator as properly as they could fewer people would get ill than if only the few people who use fresh air used them and the rest thought that the charcol respirator is doing nothing.

If I can get the word out to everyone who isn't going to be spraying much, or can't afford a fresh air simply use the charcoal respirator properly I can sleep well.

Brian

[Mooch]

A charcoal respirator is useless if it doesn't fit right and if it isn't put on the head right . Anyone who uses one should be clean shaved also .

Other than that they work well . I use a fesh air system now even though I do very little work anymore . But I also have a beard most of the year .

Every problem I have ever had with a respirator was with fit .

I do recommend a fresh air sustem though even though I hate the hose .

Mooch :reading:

[Phil V]

Phil there is a such thing as "Iso-sensitivity" where even a tiny exposure will get you sick, Dusty may very well have that condition.

I have a personal friend, probably the best painter I have ever seen, have to walk away from painting. This was about 20 years ago, he couldn't even be in the same room where paint is being mixed.

On the whole respirator debate I have to say it is very simple to me. And I will put it this way:

If everyone who sprays paint were to use a charcoal respirator as properly as they could fewer people would get ill than if only the few people who use fresh air used them and the rest thought that the charcol respirator is doing nothing.

If I can get the word out to everyone who isn't going to be spraying much, or can't afford a fresh air simply use the charcoal respirator properly I can sleep well.

Brian

Brian, the thought that Dusty MAY have an iso sensitivity occured to me but the odds of him really being iso sensitive is practically nonexistant given his lack of past experience spraying iso based paints. I think we can all agree that the incidence of iso sensitivity among people whose only contact to iso was in spraying automotive paint as a hobby is I would guess one in several million. Is it possible he is iso sensitive ? Sure, its also possible he is an Ebola carrier and that he could win the state lottery 5 times in a row. Of course the odds are that neither case would be true and the odds of him being iso sensitive are about equal to those odds.

[dusty-ole-spraygun]

Phil, I was told by the 3M rep I may be ISO sensitized. I have the classic chest pains that go with it, for 4 days now. Perhaps you think it's some kind of joke ? It only takes one large dose to be sensitized, or many small doses over time. I've been exposed to hardened paints and iso's to various degrees since 1984, working at a body shop/car lot, and painting cars myself in my own shop, and at home. I've also been exposed to moisture and air-dried urethanes. Not long ago, there was furniture and wood products that were air dried, that had iso's in them- so many may be sensitized. One guy was sensitized by concrete textured paint he used in his storm cellar, and had to sleep there a few nights due to storms, and got severely ill- it disabled him. Reading case history on the net, there was a large ISO spill due to accident with a truck on a highway, and 2 policemen stopped to direct traffic at the crash site -both developed ISO sensitivity and have health problems to this day, and that was outside in open air when it happened.

I've also read your archive posts, you painted ISO paints for years with charcoal masks- and were actually recommending charcoal masks for ISO's at one time quite regularly here- do you ever wonder why you had throat cancer ? Do a search- they have found that ISO caused cancer in lab animals.

not everyone reacts the same to chemicals- for instance, it's now a proven medical fact that people with red hair, take 20% more anesthesia to put under for operations, than people with brown or blond hair- the doctors actually now ask patients if their hair is dyed red, or natural red- so they don't give someone with phony dyed red hair 20% anesthesia when they don't need it

the same holds true for ISO's- what may not bother you for 10 years, may knock someone else on their butt in 1 month- everyone's body chemistry is different- the same goes for alcohol, some guys can drink 12 beers and drive home- others drink 4 beers and they can't walk straight

for the record, I went to the local hardware store that carries Tru-Value, they have a high end respirator w/charcoal/prefilters setup- their own house brand- it costs $40- right on the package now, it says "NOT FOR URETHANE PAINTS"

word is getting around, the charcoal masks won't protect you- it doesnt' take much to get sensitized- you can get the paint on your hands 3 times mixing the paint, and the 4th time you spray it get a reaction- we are talking very powerful and reactive substances here

[MARTINSR]

for the record, I went to the local hardware store that carries Tru-Value, they have a high end respirator w/charcoal/prefilters setup- their own house brand- it costs $40- right on the package now, it says "NOT FOR URETHANE PAINTS"



If you jumped back in time you would see that they never did say that!

I was a paint rep when the laws were changed making the fresh air systems the only way a painter could spray. Well, that isn't even true because from what I remember charcoal respirators are STILL legal (at least here in Ca) if it is being used by certain guide lines which inclue a down draft booth (described as exchanging a certain amount of air an hour).

But when this law came along I was discussing it with an SAS rep and he said it was largely a response by our government to the misuse of the charcoal respirator. The fresh air system is a dumbed down protection that you just can't screw up, at least not very easily.

The respirator requires a bunch of maintainance and attention or it won't protect you. If used properly it will, that was the difference I was told.

As I said, I rather see everyone use a charcoal respirator properly than for people to think they do nothing and say the hell with it I can't afford a fresh air so I will paint this without anything being the charcoal doesn't help.

FEW home hobbiest will fork out the dough for a fresh air system. I rather see them PROPERLY use a charcoal mask than use it wrong or not at all.

Brian

[Phil V]

Dusty, in all honesty I have no idea of what boneheaded decisions you've made in the past being around iso based paints that could be coming back to bite you in the ass now. I know of NO professional painter and I have NEVER met a professional painter personally who has an iso sensitivity. We all hear horror stories but based on my experience those that did end up suffering an iso sensitivity were guys who were not the sharpest crayons in the box and made really dumb ass decisions like spraying iso based paint with a dust mask or spraying that stuff in the general work area where other people were forced to breath iso based paint or leave the shop. I left a couple shops for that very reason, I was NEVER around any iso based paint without a wearing a properly fitted moderatly fresh dual cannister painters mask.

One last point. I DID have throat cancer that started in my left tonsil. I have asked EVERY doctor I have come in contact with what they felt caused the cancer. EVERY doctor said it was smoking two packs of unfiltered Camels for 20 years is what caused that cancer. One of the doctors said that the drinking along with the cigarettes was the catalyst needed for the cancer. I also asked each one specifically if my career as a bodyman and painter was a probable cause and they all stated "NO" (it was the camel unfilters). If you did more research into cancers caused by paints you will find that liver and bladder cancer are the big ones (not lung or throat cancer).

I have said right from the get go that if a person is going to stay in this hobby for years or does more than two or three full paints a year then they should invest in a fresh air system. Spraying one, two or three cars a year with a dual cannister painters mask being properly used in NOT going to do that person any permanent harm.

[MARTINSR]

I just got an email notification that someone posted on a thread I posted on quite a while ago. I went to it and low and behold it looks like you Dusty! Did you post this?

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/showthread.php?p=2963772#post2963772

Brian

[dusty-ole-spraygun]

post deleted

[Phil V]

You know guys - a thought just occured to me that I (all of us) have overlooked an obvious reason why Dusty has been having health issues.

Dusty, what did they tell you at the emergency hospital you went to after having those symptoms ??? The health problems you're experiencing may well have absolutely nothing to do with the paint you sprayed but a serious health condition that could very possibly become critical shortly. You could have experienced a mini-stroke or it could be caused by heart related problems. You need to get to a doctor shortly and get a series of tests done to make sure its not heart related or something else equally serious wrong with you. this post is not a joke or messing with you, I am serious.

[All Dry]

You know guys - a thought just occured to me that I (all of us) have overlooked an obvious reason why Dusty has been having health issues.

Dusty, what did they tell you at the emergency hospital you went to after having those symptoms ??? The health problems you're experiencing may well have absolutely nothing to do with the paint you sprayed but a serious health condition that could very possibly become critical shortly. You could have experienced a mini-stroke or it could be caused by heart related problems. You need to get to a doctor shortly and get a series of tests done to make sure its not heart related or something else equally serious wrong with you. this post is not a joke or messing with you, I am serious.I concurr,Dusty should go get checked out for other possible conditions.Mike

[dusty-ole-spraygun]

If you jumped back in time you would see that they never did say that!
Brian


Brian- I was at Ace Tru-Value today- now they're house brand best charcoal masks, have "not for urethane paints" right on the front of the box, you can't miss it

reason- there are case histories online now, where hundreds of painters are now ISO sensitized for life after using ISO paints for anywhere from 3-6 years, the symptoms can persist forever

using fresh air supplied apparatus isn't "dumbed down"- it's the only way to get truly clean air while painting- a charcoal respirator is a piss-poor excuse for safety

why take dirty air and try to clean it, when you can just pipe in fresh outside air already clean

to make an analogy, would you rather drink water from a fresh mountain spring, or try to filter and clean sewage until it was drinkable ? And could you ever get all the sewage out ? answer- you can't get dirty air or water 100% clean- it's better and easier to start off with a clean substance in the first place

[dusty-ole-spraygun]

You know guys - a thought just occured to me that I (all of us) have overlooked an obvious reason why Dusty has been having health issues.

Dusty, what did they tell you at the emergency hospital you went to after having those symptoms ??? The health problems you're experiencing may well have absolutely nothing to do with the paint you sprayed but a serious health condition that could very possibly become critical shortly. You could have experienced a mini-stroke or it could be caused by heart related problems. You need to get to a doctor shortly and get a series of tests done to make sure its not heart related or something else equally serious wrong with you. this post is not a joke or messing with you, I am serious.


I'm only 46 and in very good shape, not overweight, weigh 165 lbs. 5'10"- I get a yearly physical and have been on a treadmill, my heart is 96% and to be honest, I could probably kick the crap out of all of you. Not bragging, just stating a fact, I'm in good health.

at least I was, until I sprayed that urethane earlier this week- this chest discomfort comes and goes, my vision is blurred occasionally, and sometimes I lose track of my thoughts, but checking online that's all part of ISO symptoms

what I'd like to know from you guys, and Brian in particular, is how long will these symptoms persist ? I've been told by someone else who breathed in bleach fumes, that it took a full week before his chest stopped hurting, the doctor said it was "chemical burn" in his airway tract

this feels similar, but it comes and goes- I seem to be doing better lately, if this gets worse or doesn't go away, then I'm going to HAVE TO go to the doctor and tell him the whole deal- it took until now to put it all together, I just read that varnish can 10 minutes ago

I did feel a bit better today, so I painted the mirrors, door hinges, and hood scoop for my car with epoxy outside, with a charcoal mask- epoxy is nothing compared to urethane- I'm not putting the urethane on those parts, the damn thing can rot into dust before I spray urethane again- even if someone gave me a supplied air mask for free- let me be honest- you guys are NUTS for using that urethane- you may as well play Russian Roulette

give me straight lacquer or enamel any day- the hardened paints are just too dangerous. Just my luck to use a varnish a month before too, that has ISO in it. It's just s-hit luck.

[Mooch]

I'm only 46 and in very good shape, not overweight, weigh 165 lbs. 5'10"- I get a yearly physical and have been on a treadmill, my heart is 96% and to be honest, I could probably kick the crap out of all of you. Not bragging, just stating a fact, I'm in good health.

With those lungs ,I doubt if you could kick Pee Wee Hermans ass .

To answer your question it could last the rest of your life .

Mooch

[MARTINSR]

using fresh air supplied apparatus isn't "dumbed down"- it's the only way to get truly clean air while painting- a charcoal respirator is a piss-poor excuse for safety

why take dirty air and try to clean it, when you can just pipe in fresh outside air already clean



Dusty, and all others reading this I am in no way saying that they are equal, I am in no way saying that the fresh air is for people too stupid to use the charcoal respirator, PLEASE, NO BODY TAKE IT THAT WAY, PLEASE!

What I am saying is that the fresh air system is EASY to use and protect you, there is no thinking about it, you just USE it. Respirators are NOT equal as you point out Dusty, you are GETTING fresh air not trying to "clean" horribly dirty air. It only makes sense that the fresh air is MUCH safer and the way to go, IF you can afford it and IF you have conditions that don't meet a safe use of a resprirator requirement.

Brian

[PachecoJ]

Dusty,

Mustard gas is made of isothiocyanates, not diisocyanates which occurr in catalyzed paints. The difference is that isothiocyanates replace oxygene with sulfur, giving it the sweet smell (which doesn't occurr in catalyzed paints).

An interesting point also is that, while toxic in large quantities, isothiocyanates are a powerful anti-cancer agent. They inhibit carcinogenesis. In fact, the bitter taste and nasty smell of overcooked leafy green vegetables is actually the release of isothiocyanates from the cells of the vegetable.

Moral of the story, when your mom overcooked your leafy greens, she was either trying to give you cancer fighting agents, or poison you with mustard gas. You decide.

Jason

[All Dry]

With those lungs ,I doubt if you could kick Pee Wee Hermans ass .

To answer your question it could last the rest of your life .

MoochHe is going to kick your ass between chest pain and dizzy spells:D Mike

[e-tek]

This is Dusty's brain.:brainiac:
This is Dusty's brain on iso-"cyanides";) .:dunce:

Any questions?:scratchch

[motomann883]

quote from dusty there was another case online, where a guy had his floors refinished in his house by a contractor, he slept in the house that night and got sick, and ended up dying

ive been reading this thread and i'll chime in now, i've been doing hardwood floors for 20 yrs and have used every polyurethane known oil, water,moisture cure and acid cure and several other chemicals and the only polys that would "kill" you is acid cure, it will literally colapse your lungs and shouldnt be used on any floor in any home for this reason, i only use this poly on commercial jobs and inform the gc that all coating will be done after hours when the job is shut done, we use full faced charcoal masks and change the filters before every coat and have plenty of ventalation. there is no way a flooring contractor would use acid cure poly on a residential application because of this health danger, flammablity, and it just to expensive, the price would scare the customer away. i mostly use oil based polys and the most they will do is give you a headache, ive had hundreds and hundreds of customers live and sleep in there home through the whole process and never killed anyone. like i said i've been doing this for 20yrs and have never used a mask (except for the acid cure) and smoke and painting cars for a few years, i use a charcoal mask and make sure it fits tight (almost painful tight),and change the filters every paint job. i'm still alive and have no health problems, im sure the smoking is what will do me in. i do agree the fresh air system is the best for painting and will invest in one soon as im painting more and more car every year

[Phil V]

Dusty, DO US ALL A FAVOR AND GO GET THOROUGHLY CHECKED OUT BY MEDICAL SPECIALISTS WHO DEAL IN CARDIAC, CARDIOVASCULAR AND NEUROLOGY. GET A FULL BLOOD WORKUP ------------ THEN COME BACK AFTER A CLEAN BILL OF HEALTH FROM YOUR DOCTORS.

I really don't think your problems are iso based.

[dusty-ole-spraygun]

Last night 12 midnight, chest pain got so bad I had to drive myself to ER. They listened to my heart, lungs, took BP, pulse- BP was elevated. Gave me a breathing treatment, that relaxed the pain, I was able to cough up some phlegm, and I must have farted 20 times and felt much better. When they gave me the breathing treatment, I could hear all these liquids moving in my gut and got tremendous relief.

Diagnosis is bronchial spasm due to breathing paint fumes. I took the MSDS for the urethane paint with me- they prescribed a puff bronchodialator pump spray medicine. Got home around 5 AM, and slowly the pain/spasm started coming back. Pharmacy didn't open until 9 AM, wife brought the med home at 10 AM and I took it- felt better.

I talked to a friend painter, he said it would get him for a day or so, but not for 5 days. He said I got it good, must have been painting all day with no mask in there.

I said no, was painting OUTSIDE with brand new mask, and all safety gear- and still got bit.

Words to the wise, you newbies out there- leave the urethane to the guys with high-end spray booths and supplied air suits. No more for me. From now on, it's single stage and no more hardeners/isos. Not worth risking my health over any damned paint job. In the end it's a shiny piece of metal that hauls your ass around, and doesn't matter as much as seeing your wife, kids, family and being in good health.

I'll keep you posted. I'm just praying it's not going to take 3 months to get over this, like some other posts I've read online. If it doesn't go away naturally while treating symptoms with pump spray orally, I have to go on a steroid to reduce lung tissue swelling.

The way the nurse explained it, your lungs are like fingers on your hand- the iso's cause the fingers to close at the half way knuckle point. That traps air in the end of finger, causes the pain, discomfort, bloating. The bronchial muscle contracts in center of chest at diaphragm.

yes Phil, it's from the iso's- and I got news for you- most likely so was your throat cancer.

[dusty-ole-spraygun]

quote from dusty there was another case online, where a guy had his floors refinished in his house by a contractor, he slept in the house that night and got sick, and ended up dying

ive been reading this thread and i'll chime in now, i've been doing hardwood floors for 20 yrs and have used every polyurethane known oil, water,moisture cure and acid cure and several other chemicals and the only polys that would "kill" you is acid cure, it will literally colapse your lungs and shouldnt be used on any floor in any home for this reason, i only use this poly on commercial jobs and inform the gc that all coating will be done after hours when the job is shut done, we use full faced charcoal masks and change the filters before every coat and have plenty of ventalation. there is no way a flooring contractor would use acid cure poly on a residential application because of this health danger, flammablity, and it just to expensive, the price would scare the customer away. i mostly use oil based polys and the most they will do is give you a headache, ive had hundreds and hundreds of customers live and sleep in there home through the whole process and never killed anyone. like i said i've been doing this for 20yrs and have never used a mask (except for the acid cure) and smoke and painting cars for a few years, i use a charcoal mask and make sure it fits tight (almost painful tight),and change the filters every paint job. i'm still alive and have no health problems, im sure the smoking is what will do me in. i do agree the fresh air system is the best for painting and will invest in one soon as im painting more and more car every year


thanks for your input, sounds like the bed frame is safe, it's air dry poly

but your post gives some important info- the HDI iso hardener has many chemical names, one of them is an acid

yes, it's an acid that gets past your cartridges, and into your lungs- I'm wondering if an acid gas charcoal filter would not be the better one for urethanes, considering that

[MARTINSR]

So I am sitting here channel surfing on tv. I hit "Muscle car" on Spike tv. Low and behold there is a guy painting a Firebird with a charcoal respirator. It appears to be in a booth but it has lousy air movement as there was a LOT of overspray hanging around.

But check this out, they go to the next segment, building the rear end. The guy walking us thru this is the same guy who was painting.

He opens the rear end segment with "While I was sucking up isocyanates, Jack was working on the 9 inch" http://autobodystore.com/forum/images/smilies/nono.gif

Brian

[Phil V]

Dusty there can only be a couple answers to your "illness". One - the mask you used was/is junk and totally ineffectual which allowed you to breathe straight paint fumes (logically you would have smelled the paint coming in the mask and stopped immediately). Or Two - you are the one in a million people who has a genetic propensity to iso sensitization (not likely). Or Three - you have been abusing your lungs around iso paints for years and its finally come back to bite you in the ass.

Regardless of what led up to your "situation" you can't logically and factually apply your extremely rare situation as a blanket statement to everyone who sprays iso based paint. Maybe you should have just sprung for the $17.00 and bought a 3-M dual cannister painters mask like most professional painters use (me included) and most have used in the business for the last half a century with no ill effects.

Just to clear up another point - the MAIN reason why paint mask manufactures don't recommend in writing to use their masks for iso based paints is because the MASKS ARE NOT IDIOT PROOF and we live in a litigation happy society.

999,999,999 people have no problems spraying with a FRESH dual cannister painters mask and now because you for reasons still unknown to us has an apparent reaction to iso hardened paint and all of a sudden you're on a crusade to save eveyone from themselves. I don't mean to sound like a jerk but I would be willing to bet that if the situation allowed it your "illness" could be traced back one way or another to a direct screwup on your part.

I'm a professional painter with several decades of painting experience and I personally know MANY other pro painters who have used the 3-M dual cannister painters masks for several decades with no iso based symptoms (asthma symptoms). You need to ask yourself " of all the thousands of pro painters using charcoal masks why is it that you (a novice who rarely sprays paint) have a problem and they don't ???"

I am 100% convinced (backed by some of the best medical specialists in the world, University of Michigan Hospital) that the throat cancer I had was NOT related to autobody or automotive paint work (iso's). It WAS caused by 2 packs of camel unfiltereds a day for 20 years.

[e-tek]

While we can't conclusively rule out iso or VOC exposure causing dusty's symptoms and subsequent beathing problems, I would more likely align the cause to "gas trapping" brought on by an anxiety attack.
As we followed Dusty's thread we see that he was overly worried by the - at first - mild symptoms - he was experiencing. As anxiety increases, it can often cause a shortened breathing maneuvre and bronchospasm, leading to "gas trapping". Some of the air that you intake gets trapped in your lungs (as the nurse noted) and some gets trapped in your GI tract (hence the farting). All this gas causes referred chest pains and can also cause an irregular heartbeat.
Thus, the doc would have prescribed a bronchodilator ("breathing treatment") - to relax your airways - which makes you feel better.
While it's VERY hard for anyone to say what it was due to, especially those of us not in contact with Dusty, I'd bet on the latter.

[MARTINSR]

I was thinking the same thing! I saw myself in some Dustys posts. I have have a few horrible illnesses complete with some "real" symptoms that all disappeared once a doctor confirmed there was nothing there. :)

Brian

[kevininohio]

According to this paragraph he went ahead and painted again with epoxy using the same suspect mask???

"I did feel a bit better today, so I painted the mirrors, door hinges, and hood scoop for my car with epoxy outside, with a charcoal mask- epoxy is nothing compared to urethane- I'm not putting the urethane on those parts, the damn thing can rot into dust before I spray urethane again- even if someone gave me a supplied air mask for free- let me be honest- you guys are NUTS for using that urethane- you may as well play Russian Roulette"

His symtoms then got worse:scratchch survey says....

[MeanGreen]

Dusty,
I hope you feel better, but don't take what I'm about to say personally. This is why I worry that one day the automotive paint industry will be forced (or just decide) to stop selling to the hobbyist. Too many of us, chance it, not using fresh-air supplied respirators, etc. and then complain to manufacturers, etc. that they feel ill. Eventually, their lawyers are going to put the brakes on, if they feel they are putting themselves at finacial risk.
Iso poisoning is something you can't predict. You can spray 10 cars (1 car every six months for 5 years) and be fine, and then 2 years later, shoot the 11th car and end up in the hospital. Before my next project I am getting a fresh air system.
I do appreciate the headsup about the 3M mask, though. From everything I have read and people (Painters) I have talked with, the cartridge masks work, but the problem is that if it does not fit your face or you have any facial hair, that it leaks....hence why the positive pressure deals are the hot ticket.
Jerry

[dusty-ole-spraygun]

thanks for reply- the truth is, this paint should be removed from the market completely. It was originally invented by the Nazis during WWII for tank/ship/aircraft coating, and was nothing more than a further side development of their gas chamber chemicals used to kill millions of Jews in concentration camps of WWII. It's the same basic chemicals, the "catalyst" or "hardener" as we call it, is actually a very strong acid- think of it as mixing ammonia and bleach, then putting it in a spray gun, closing the door, and spraying it with a suit/hood on.

it's stupid, actually. Even with a fresh air supplied helmet.

the ingredients of TDI (toulene diisocyanate) include CHLORINE, NITRIC ACID, and FORMALDEHYDE, mixed with Benzene, etc.

the catalyst, is actually a nice word for nasty corrosive acids.

what you are doing spraying a car with urethane or any other hardened/catalyzed paint, it creating a deadly gas chamber in the spray booth, then donning protective safety equipment to try to survive it

that is assinine- I'd rather use safer paint to begin with- holdout on a car is not that important

attached is my discharge sheet.

I've talked to 2 other painters who used charcoal masks their whole career since this happened to me, one got really tired and felt crappy recently, had to get a blood transfusion.

The other one was painting with a supplied air helmet in a spray booth- he had 2 episodes of hypoglycemia and his blood counts were off, because the iso's get into your bloodstream anyway no matter what, and use up/throw off your blood sugar levels- he has quit painting now- his employer cannot replace him, and offered him a big raise to come back.

He refused, said "I don't want to do that anymore"

If you could only feel the pain and discomfort this paint will do to you, for one day, you'd never spray urethane again. Sooner or later every painter using this stuff, will experience it- especially with charcoal masks- and even with supplied air.

I blacked out the personal info for my doctor, nurse, health care system, and hospital- for obvious personal reasons

in this case, the SS urethane lived up to its MSDS warnings to the proverbial "T"- it came through a new charcoal mask after 1 hour of use, over 3 days- even though the mask was stored in double ziplock bag. It created a "delayed lung injury" per the MSDS, sprayed paint Fri-Sat-Mon- had bad chest pains Friday night, 4 days later. It created a "chemical induced asthma" per MSDS sheet, by restricting my lungs due to bronchial spasm. It gave me dizziness, difficulty speaking, loss of balance, lightheadedness. It created cold burning sensation in chest. It also created digestive problems, the upper bowel goes into spasm along with the lung, so it creates a lot of gas in the stomach/intestines- and makes you bloated.

I say this with all due respect to everyone, but from now on, IMHO, urethane is an IQ test, if you're still spraying it, you flunked. I'm controlling my symptoms with an inhaler and sleeping much better, if this doesn't work I'll need a steroid- but this is nothing new to people working in the ER ! The nurse told me straight out, painters are coming in there from factories, gasping for breath and with severe symptoms, much worse than mine- I drove myself down in my own car- these other guys are coming in via ambulance on stretchers.

if they outlawed urethane paint and only used it for national defense equipment, that would be fine with me- urethane is a remnant technology from an evil empire from the 1940's, the German Nazis who didn't give a crap about killing anyone, even their own people- and actually relished in inventing chemicals that would liquify your lungs and kill you in 3 minutes- this urethane technology should really be left behind already- it's time to go to water based paints that won't kill you. Painting cars in a space suit is ridiculous, everyone that has supplied air says dragging the hose around is a real PITFA.

http://i38.tinypic.com/1zxs4ro.jpg

[MeanGreen]

Dusty,
I would much rather spray urethane on my vehicle once and have it last 15 years, rather than paint my car with "safer" lacquer and have to repaint it every 5 years.
These paints are safe, if used right. Even if these chemicals are similar to the stuff the Germans used back then......who really gives a damn? I don't. I want my paint to survive the hostile environment all the tree huggers are trying to protect. Who the hell is protecting us from the environment! LOL!
Jerry

[Mooch]

Dusty sometimes a picture will snap a person back to reality . Mooch :zzz:




1528

[dusty-ole-spraygun]

here's the filters receipt, as of now they are only 9 days old- again, I'm blacking out personal info and my account info, for obvious reasons

these filters only lasted 2 days, enough to paint hood-trunk lid-trunk to rear window panel-doors with parts removed on sawhorses outside

day 3 painting rest of car outside, these filters failed and ISO gases broke through and caused severe health issues

total time on cartridges was less than 2 hours.

the problem with organic vapor cartridges is, they don't stop acid gases- someone at the highest levels of 3M is ignoring the fact, these catalysts have a high acid content, i.e. chlorine, nitric, formaldehyde, etc.

the fumes are not trapped by the prefilters, only the paint is- the fumes from acid quickly overwhelm a charcoal filter, and come right through in about 1 hour- but you can't smell them at that point, your nose gets worn out quickly from the fumes and you don't even know you are breathing ACID GAS from the hardener

so does anyone still want to spray urethane with charcoal filters ? Keep in mind, I was OUTSIDE the whole time.

imagine if I was inside- I very well may not be alive now, or in the hospital on IV's and oxygen and steroids.

http://i34.tinypic.com/3464zo3.jpg

[dusty-ole-spraygun]

I've see a lot of posts from Phil, etc. blaming me for this incident, well here's the 3M rep telling me to use these cartridges, back in October. I later called them to verify, and a female rep told me yes, use those cartridges, and break the job down into smaller parts, and spray outside.

I followed their advice to the letter- and almost killed myself and ended up in the ER. It's obvious these OV cartridges are NOT protection against ISO gases, what would be better is a heavy duty combination ACID GAS/OV cartridge



----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 9:34 AM
Subject: Re: respirator/cartridges for spraying urethane paints w/isocyanate hardeners ?

> 3M generally recommends an organic vapor cartridge with a 95 class particle
> prefilter for spraying paints and coatings, including those containing
> isocyanates. The 3M 7500 Series Respirator (7501/7502/7503 for S/M/L) with
> the 6001 Organic Vapor Cartridge, 5P71 P95 Prefilter and 501 Retainer is
> suggested. This assembly offers protection up to 10X the OSHA PEL. Attached
> is a product file. Additional information, including where to buy, may be
> found on our website at www.mmm.com/Occsafety
>
> Regards,

[spiffitz]

The other day I was coloring with the kids outside using crayons, and the next day I woke up with shortness of breath and a numbness on left big toe. This was Crayola brand crayons and never happened when I used the cheap Chuck E Cheese crayons. Stay away from Crayola!

I also sprayed single stage urethane with a a charcoal mask last month in the driveway and the garage stunk like high heaven the next few days. I then felt dizzy the following days. Then I remembered complaining about my dizziness to a co-worker even before I bought the paint.

[MeanGreen]

Dusty
Back when I was younger and much dumber, I did a SS urethane job on my Jeep. This was a body off paint job, so the firewall, underside...everything was painted. Anyway, my cartridge mask starting to bother me (itchy and building up with my sweat) so like an idiot I removed it and finished painting. Yeah, it was dumb, but 15 years later, I'm still alive with no ill effects. Oh, and I was using a conventional gun....I have pictures of the overspray in the air in the garage with poor ventilation.
My point it that these fumes are dangerous but not nearly as dangerous as you make them out to be. Some people respond very quickly to them and others don't. It's kind of like a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Damn tasty if you're not allergic to peanuts. If you are, well, it's ER time. Sound familiar?
What I am getting at, is take personal responsiblity for your actions. It is NOT Lowe's problem, it's not 3M's problem and it isn't the paint manufacturer's problem. Everyone here that is a pro will tell you, don't gamble with your life, get a good pos. pressure respirator. 1200 bucks worth of paint material is the norm, so what's 400 more for personal protection. You decided to be cheap (like most of us) and took the gamble and got sick. Yeah, that sucks, and I'm glad you went to the doctor to get better, but the cartridge masks have their limits...either change them A LOT and make sure it actually seals to your face. If you can smell paint at all with it on, it is leaking past your cheaks, chin, etc. And if you have facial hair, they don't work at all.
Jerry

[Phil V]

thanks for reply- the truth is, this paint should be removed from the market completely. It was originally invented by the Nazis during WWII for tank/ship/aircraft coating, and was nothing more than a further side development of their gas chamber chemicals used to kill millions of Jews in concentration camps of WWII. It's the same basic chemicals, the "catalyst" or "hardener" as we call it, is actually a very strong acid- think of it as mixing ammonia and bleach, then putting it in a spray gun, closing the door, and spraying it with a suit/hood on.

it's stupid, actually. Even with a fresh air supplied helmet.

the ingredients of TDI (toulene diisocyanate) include CHLORINE, NITRIC ACID, and FORMALDEHYDE, mixed with Benzene, etc.

the catalyst, is actually a nice word for nasty corrosive acids.





what you are doing spraying a car with urethane or any other hardened/catalyzed paint, it creating a deadly gas chamber in the spray booth, then donning protective safety equipment to try to survive it

that is assinine- I'd rather use safer paint to begin with- holdout on a car is not that important

attached is my discharge sheet.

I've talked to 2 other painters who used charcoal masks their whole career since this happened to me, one got really tired and felt crappy recently, had to get a blood transfusion.

The other one was painting with a supplied air helmet in a spray booth- he had 2 episodes of hypoglycemia and his blood counts were off, because the iso's get into your bloodstream anyway no matter what, and use up/throw off your blood sugar levels- he has quit painting now- his employer cannot replace him, and offered him a big raise to come back.

He refused, said "I don't want to do that anymore"

If you could only feel the pain and discomfort this paint will do to you, for one day, you'd never spray urethane again. Sooner or later every painter using this stuff, will experience it- especially with charcoal masks- and even with supplied air.

I blacked out the personal info for my doctor, nurse, health care system, and hospital- for obvious personal reasons

in this case, the SS urethane lived up to its MSDS warnings to the proverbial "T"- it came through a new charcoal mask after 1 hour of use, over 3 days- even though the mask was stored in double ziplock bag. It created a "delayed lung injury" per the MSDS, sprayed paint Fri-Sat-Mon- had bad chest pains Friday night, 4 days later. It created a "chemical induced asthma" per MSDS sheet, by restricting my lungs due to bronchial spasm. It gave me dizziness, difficulty speaking, loss of balance, lightheadedness. It created cold burning sensation in chest. It also created digestive problems, the upper bowel goes into spasm along with the lung, so it creates a lot of gas in the stomach/intestines- and makes you bloated.

I say this with all due respect to everyone, but from now on, IMHO, urethane is an IQ test, if you're still spraying it, you flunked. I'm controlling my symptoms with an inhaler and sleeping much better, if this doesn't work I'll need a steroid- but this is nothing new to people working in the ER ! The nurse told me straight out, painters are coming in there from factories, gasping for breath and with severe symptoms, much worse than mine- I drove myself down in my own car- these other guys are coming in via ambulance on stretchers.

if they outlawed urethane paint and only used it for national defense equipment, that would be fine with me- urethane is a remnant technology from an evil empire from the 1940's, the German Nazis who didn't give a crap about killing anyone, even their own people- and actually relished in inventing chemicals that would liquify your lungs and kill you in 3 minutes- this urethane technology should really be left behind already- it's time to go to water based paints that won't kill you. Painting cars in a space suit is ridiculous, everyone that has supplied air says dragging the hose around is a real PITFA.

http://i38.tinypic.com/1zxs4ro.jpg



Dusty, this thread of yours (along with your similar threads) have gone on WAAAAAY too long. OF COURSE the ER at the hospital gave you an inhaler --- BECAUSE YOU TOLD THEM YOU INHALED TOXIC GASSES. ALL THEY HAD TO GO ON AT AN ER IS - WHAT YOU TOLD THEM! I don't expect an honest answer to this question - but - when you were spraying that paint with your "lowes" respriator that supposedly made you sick - did you smell paint coming through the mask ??? If the answer is yes - then why the hell didn't you stop immediately and go buy an approved 3-M dual cannister painters mask from a automotive paint store ? If you DIDN'T smell paint coming through the mask THEN THE MASK WAS NOT THE PROBLEM, PERIOD !!! Its been proven by gov't scientists at Osha/Niosh that when a painters mask cartridge goes bad ( surpassed its usuable life span) that there is a chemical called N-butyl acetate which is one of many different chemicals in the paint we use. What those gov't scientists discovered is that when you can smell N-butyl acetate coming through the mask (just a chemical smell) that chemical bleeds through the filters much faster than iso's. Point being that when a mask goes bad from use you can smell a chemical long before iso's bleed through those same filters. ISO's are odorless and tasteless so the moral to the story is -- if you smell any chemicals coming through the mask throw it out immediately and use a fresh mask. Its not rocket science, dude.
the ONLY way they can come to any definitive conclusion about your "illness" is to put you in the hospital for several days and run you through a whole battery of tests including a full blood workup. (not 45 minutes at the ER). With all the corners you've been cutting including clinging tenaciously to your antique spray guns, a spray mask that should have been thrown out years ago etc etc you probably don't have medical insurance so you never will get to the bottom of what the problem REALLY is. So the world will be treated to your ill conceived rendition of spraying iso based paint and what a terrible product it is being sold to poor unfortunate people like you so that you can get sick. There is little doubt in my mind that you are contemplating suing the cartridge company and the company that made the paint. Gotta blame someone - right ? Couldn't be your f*ck up, right ? Its all a big conspiracy to take advantage of you and make you sick. Actually, I'm sick of this whole thread. Again - ask yourself why its only YOU that got sick and no one else ??? Why do you suppose that is ???

[MARTINSR]

The first thing I read on that ER "report" caught me as odd. I know this may simply be "simantics" but in the respiratory protection world a "Fume" is tiny particles floating in the air caused by metal being melted and found in welding, soldering, smelting, etc.

"Mists" are tiny droplets formed from liquid materials being atomized.

"vapors" are a gaseous state of a material as they evaporate.

So they used some generic term because that is all they had a generic diagnoisis.

I know one thing I have found, a car after being painted has solvents flashing off at an incredable rate. I remember watching bugs fly over the hood of a car I had painted in lacquer and driven outside. This paint was "dry" to the touch enough to rub it hard with your hand. Yet it was flashing off such solvents that these bugs were dropping to the hood and dying before they could fly across the width of it! I couldn't believe my eyes, the bugs were about three feet over the top of the car. As they flew over the hood they got all squirly and then fell to the hood and died!

If you paint a car and then when the painting is done remove your mask and go and check it out, clean your gun, that sort of thing you are exposing yourself to a LOT of "vapors" (not "fumes") and are exposing themselves to great harm.

Dusty, did you do a positive and negative fit check on that respirator?

Brian

[dusty-ole-spraygun]

Phil, the thread is long, because this incident is still ongoing- details are developing daily. Painters such as yourself are on this newsgroup giving advice, recommending spray guns, paints, primers, etc. Most painters recommend urethane paints. I thought they were the greatest thing since sliced bread myself, until now.

It's obvious the health hazards of using urethanes far outweigh any benefits from longer paint holdout. What a joke- prevent your car from rusting, but instead liquify your lungs and destroy your nervous system ?

There's a lot of hobbyists on this group that have never painted with anything more than a rattle can- I can tell by the questions they ask- now imagine them trying their "first paint job" at home in the garage, with a fan in the window for exhaust, a spray gun, and their wife and kids in the house- using these urethanes- with new charcoal mask. That is a recipe for disaster-they risk their own health, life- and their family- for some reason you have blinders on and can't see that far down the road.

The paint mfrgs. and respirator mfgs. are doing a lot of BS-ing, and all you get is smoke and mirrors when you ask them a direct question on these matters. You don't get to find out the deadly side effects of the paint, or how long a charcoal mask will last with it (1 hour only), until afterwards, when you request the MSDS sheets. By then it's too late- they don't give you an MSDS when you buy the paint- you have to get it faxed to you by special request- after you already can't breathe and are in the ER of a local hospital. WTH kind of service is that ?

Anyone contemplating using urethane paints, my advice is, ask for the MSDS sheet first- after you read it, you'd need to have rocks in your head, to spray that paint at all. Let the guys who think they're "safe" with supplied air masks, spray it. Even supplied air is no guarantee you won't be sensitized.

If you old-timers with experience really cared about peoples' well being, you'd be telling all hobbyists to NOT use urethane-at all- or any other hardened paints. Hardeners turn any garage or driveway into a deadly gas chamber. Painting outside is no help ! I painted outside and look what happened .

The auto refinish industry would get more business anyway, if they outlawed urethane paints altogether- so what if an straight enamel job chalks up and fades in 3 years- then the body shop can get the job to repaint it again that much sooner- and make more money. That's how it "used to be" years ago. Putting urethane paint on a car that lasts 10 years, you're only working yourself out of a future repaint job, and hurting your health at the same time.

For someone that got throat cancer himself, from painting cars with charcoal masks, why be so stubborn when it comes to the obvious. Do you want everyone else to get throat cancer too ? After suffering with this incident, I don't wish this on my worst enemy- so that's why I'm posting here- so everyone knows, to avoid these paints like the plague.

[dusty-ole-spraygun]

the ONLY way they can come to any definitive conclusion about your "illness" is to put you in the hospital for several days and run you through a whole battery of tests including a full blood workup. (not 45 minutes at the ER). ???



wrong Phil- the ER people have seen this on a monthly/yearly basis, they recognize the symptoms right off- they've have painters come in gasping for breath on stretchers. Are you going to contradict MD's with 40 years experience ? The MD who treated me, was in his early 60's and doctor his whole life. He knew what was wrong, with one look at me.

Since you've deleted the receipt for the filters, I'll repost it- and remove the vendor's name from the slip-

http://i34.tinypic.com/2mrebsi.jpg

can you people believe Phil is deleting proof that brand new 3M filters gave up and let urethane fumes through, in less than 2 hours ? Phil, are you trying to get us all killed, or what ?

I went from a happy-go-lucky guy to having to be on a lung spray, in a matter of 3 days from spraying urethane- with new filters, outside yet. I ended up in the ER of a local hospital because of it. For some reason you keep trying to squealch the truth here.

if someone here gets maimed or killed spraying urethane with charcoal masks, are you going to take full responsibility ??

[MeanGreen]

Dusty,
Get over yourself. You and people like you are why there as so many damn lawyers in the country. And what do you prefer we use....clear coats are mostyl all urethane. You want lacquer.....might as well cover it in rattlecans then. Waterbourne technology is not there yet to be used as a clear. Also water bourne is not water-based. It is still toxic, you can't drink it. If you want something safe, go get some water-based finger paint from Toys-R-Us and paint your cars with that.
New painters and hobbyist, are well aware of the risks......read your p-sheets, etc. Anybody that paints and doesn't realize there is some risk, just isn't thinking. But painting in your garage at home is perfectly safe, so long as you use your head and take certain precautions. If you have an attached garage to your home, if you have proper ventilation and your house has proper weatherstripping on the garage-to-house door, then you have little worry about fumes getting into the house. I have a buddy that paints at his house. His parakeet (spelling?) lives in a cage in the mud room, right off the garage. It hasn't died yet........You know they used to use birds in mines to check for lack of oxygen or dangerous chemicals......because they die quite easily. If his bird is still alive, I think we are pretty safe.
Just drop this BS. Don't paint, pay someone, but leave the rest of these guys alone to enjoy the hobby/profession. I farmed out one paint job and got less than perfect results. I will never do that again. I will always, from now on, paint my own stuff. I hope you do NOT persue legal action. You made a mistake. No one else.

By the way, 2 hours of urethane exposure......how much were you painting. It does not take 2 hours to clear a car...or truck for that matter. If you use cartridges, change them after each material. One for primer, one for primer/surfacer, one for BC and one for clear.

Jerry

[recoatlift]

hope you will be in good health. that said, i'd wager a months pay you will drive the medical experts nuts when you have doctor visits. those folks are in for an education they never got in med school!:)

[PachecoJ]

I disagree, I think dusty should pursue legal action...

Who will he sue? He will have to sue either 3M, Leows, or the paint company. The most likely result is that he will lose and be out several thousand dollars in lawyer fees, and then he will learn to be accountable for his own actions (unless he blames the judge).

On the off chance that he does win, then the world will be that much safer with ISO paints pulled off of the hobbyist market (fat chance).

P.S.
Dusty, you seem like somebody with a history of anxiety problems. Is this true? The-world-is-out-to-get-me mentality is usually indicative of (or results in) generalized anxiety disorder.

Jason

[Steve g]

wrong Phil- the ER people have seen this on a monthly/yearly basis, they recognize the symptoms right off- they've have painters come in gasping for breath on stretchers. Are you going to contradict MD's with 40 years experience ? The MD who treated me, was in his early 60's and doctor his whole life. He knew what was wrong, with one look at me.



can you people believe Phil is deleting proof that brand new 3M filters gave up and let urethane fumes through, in less than 2 hours ? Phil, are you trying to get us all killed, or what ?

I went from a happy-go-lucky guy to having to be on a lung spray, in a matter of 3 days from spraying urethane- with new filters, outside yet. I ended up in the ER of a local hospital because of it. For some reason you keep trying to squealch the truth here.

if someone here gets maimed or killed spraying urethane with charcoal masks, are you going to take full responsibility ??

I'm sorry, but I can't be as polite and accepting as the other guys.

Dusty, you're such an asshole! How does a receipt from anywhere prove anything? Take that into the court with you when you sue everyone in sight. So what if you bought a mask that day and let it sit on the seat of your shitbox with the bad polish job while you painted holding a Kleenex over your nose. Or you did wear your mask, with one charcoal filter over each ear. What does that receipt prove? That someone bought a mask that day from that store.

I don't believe for a moment you were ever a happy go lucky guy. You went from a lunatic to a lunatic with a misguided cause. I would challenge any statement inferring that you were at one time normal in any way shape or form.

How is Phil taking liability for anyone's injuries? Niosh and 3M have already done that by putting what Phil is restating in writing. I am more apt to take 3M and Niosh's word for something than those of a ranting idiot that has been proven wrong so many times on this forum. Dusty, even if you were actually to be correct in anything you've posted on this forum you have no credibility left. Give it up already.

Steve g

[kevininohio]

What keeps running through my head is Dusty at the hospital telling the doctors, nurses and patients their prices are out of line. Telling them how X hospital in the next town will give the same treatmeant for less and they should match it. :D

Seriously though, even though he won't respond. New filters mean NOTHING if your old mask(as you bragged about) doesn't fit. Numerous people brought up the facial hair but again, no response. It amazes me how you pick and choose information from manufacturers. One minute they are all knowing and it's the Gospel, the next they are out to kill everyone. That in a nutshell.... is why most have a hard time believing ANYTHING you say. Good luck with life.

[Phil V]

Dusty, you posted "For someone that got throat cancer himself, from painting cars with charcoal masks, why be so stubborn when it comes to the obvious. Do you want everyone else to get throat cancer too ? After suffering with this incident, I don't wish this on my worst enemy- so that's why I'm posting here- so everyone knows, to avoid these paints like the plague." (end quote).


I have made it abundantly clear several times that the throat cancer I had (and am fully cured of) was caused by 20 years of smoking unfiltered Camel cigarettes. IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH BONDO DUST OR PAINT FUMES OR ISOs). Some of the best specialists in the country (from the University of Michigan Hospital) told me it had NOTHING to do with the work I do and have done but it DID have to do with smoking cigarettes).

One last thing that you posted - I did NOT delete any of your post. I hit the quote button. Whatever was lost is missing because of the computer program. nothing I did.

This is my last message in reply to anything you have posted or will post - YOU are a frigging idiot, plain and simple. I suspect you have been for a long time and doubt if you will ever change. Len and the other members of this board - I apologize for calling someone a name that can be construed as a personal attack (but the guy IS a frigging idiot!). Now I'm done with Dusty and his fairy tales.

[MARTINSR]

On the off chance that he does win, then the world will be that much safer with ISO paints pulled off of the hobbyist market (fat chance).

Jason

Just the opposite actually, catalyzed paints are the safest for the environment at least that is what they figure at this point in time. Of course there are other ways to catalyzed paint, but isos are the way to do it most of the time. They are looking at all kinds of ways with UV and so forth but I don't know the chemistry behind them, they likely use some form of isos.

The fact is the solvent drying products (1K) were pulled from the shelves BECAUSE of there unhealthy nature.

Brian

[MeanGreen]

Just the opposite actually, catalyzed paints are the safest for the environment at least that is what they figure at this point in time. Of course there are other ways to catalyzed paint, but isos are the way to do it most of the time. They are looking at all kinds of ways with UV and so forth but I don't know the chemistry behind them, they likely use some form of isos.

The fact is the solvent drying products (1K) were pulled from the shelves BECAUSE of there unhealthy nature.

Brian

Brian,
Sorry to bring Dusty's post to the top again, but I also think it is important to point out to people that 2 component coatings are actually more dangerous before the 2 parts are mixed together. Mixing paint should be done with some form of respiratory protection. Once it is catalized it is actually much safer overall, because the paint no longer has free radicals (I believe that is right) and is now just reacting with itself rather than you or something else. I never realized this until I was reading House of Kolor's How to Custom Paint. It's a really good guide book for the hobbyist.....in my opinion.
Quick, let's lock the thread before Dusty comes back! He'll have us using Glidden house paint and a roller on our next projects. Martha Stuart will be able to show us how to get a faux finish! LOL! Now lets get back to real people with real projects that just want a nice paint job!
Jerry

[dusty-ole-spraygun]

Dusty, do you have a beard?


no 'stache or beard- clean shaven

[Steve g]

no 'stache or beard- clean shaven

New readers note:
A search of the forum will show that the quoted contributor's contributions have been proven to be inaccurate and misleading many more times than than they've shown themselves beneficial.

FOLLOW IT AT YOUR OWN PERIL

Steve g

[motomann883]

dusty im sure your a good guy and i think everyone is a little screwed up in the head in there own way, but i've been reading alot of your posts and feel if a new member posted a thread and you where the first answer they got and if they used your info they would be disappointed in their results because it says senior member under your name and think thats there because of your experiance. when i started reading this forum i was new to the new ways of painting, i use to paint alot of race cars and a few drivers when i was a teenager, i used acrylic enamels and still have the lesabre i painted 18yrs ago and it still looks good, but no comparison to the cars i've painted in the last two yrs with the urethane paints. i know ive given some wrong advice and gotten called on it and thats fine you learn from you mistakes. i 'm on this forum every night sometime all night reading up on thing to learn more and i occasioally answer a few thead, but i'll have to say the thread you are involed in are the most entertaining. i think you should retire from painting and retire from posting. hope you get to feeling better

Bill

[dusty-ole-spraygun]

Bill- don't prejudge me based on the "general consensus" of the glee club here. These are the same guys that insist you can spray iso's with charcoal masks- when they got throat cancer from it themselves.

the real issue is, iso's go right through a charcoal mask after about 1 hour- and are always leaking through even with a new charcoal filter.

yes, the holdout with AE, SE, or lacquer will not equal urethane- but you won't end up in the ER using the old SS one part paints either- and you can paint those using a charcoal mask with no ill effects. Urethane has longer holdout- but only a few more years- not forever.

I'll be painting my own cars still from time to time- but not with urethane.

I know a lot of painters personally- not a single one of them likes using urethane paints- the ones still in the biz who are in their 60's, won't use iso's-they use acrylic enamel or synthetic enamel. Every single painter I know, has had an incident with urethane paint, where is messed them up. What's that say ?

one local shop owner had a major truck contract painting the fleet trucks with urethane- he is now sensitived and can't even smell the drying paint in his shop without going into a coughing spasm- he no longer has the UPS contract and that was a big bucks deal he gave up willingly, to get away from that crap- he had 3 sons working in the shop and didn't want them exposed to it either- he is loaded with money and could buy the best supplied air system and suits on the market- he didn't- he simply stopped using urethane paint

the number one OSHA, NIOSH, DEPT of Labor tip to reduce health hazards from iso paints, is DON'T USE THE PAINT- find an alternate. Using supplied air or charcoal mask, is actually the 2 LAST things in line to do. You're much better off not even using it, than using it and trying to filter it out.

to make an analogy- would you handle uranium on a weekly basis, if I just gave you a supplied air suit and protective gear to handle it ? I wouldn't. Common sense says, you're not protected 100%

you can wear a suit and helmet and work in a nuke plant, doesn't mean you aren't getting dosed with radioactivity from uranium. I worked at a nuke plant. We had to turn in dosimeters daily, and wear them at all times, and the dose was monitored daily. And we did get doses of radioactivity, mostly radon from steam cleaning parts.

with urethane, you've got nothing but your nose and senses- when you get dizzy and can't breathe, then you know you had too much. by then, it's too late- and you're already hurting- and you have to suffer through a delayed lung injury that gets progressively worse and hits you 5 days later.

I'm not the only one who ended up in the ER with urethane, hundreds of other people did- it's just not info that most people share

what body shop has a dosimeter program in place ? you're all assuming you're "safe" with supplied air or a new charcoal mask -but you aren't actually measuring it- so how do you really know ? we have a name for that in these parts, it's called "blind pigging it"

today I'm finally able to breathe ok without the inhaler bronchodialator- last night I had some chest pressure from 2 AM to 2:30 AM, but then it went away- that med is almost as bad as the urethane- it makes your heart rate to way up, you get really tired, cranky, dry mouth, headache, and feel like crap- I'm a lot better today after one week of suffering, and let me tell you it was excruciating at times. Imagine breathing rapidly but not getting any air, and feeling like you were suffocating.

use urethane long enough, it will happen to you- with or without your supplied air mask. I have now spoken to a few guys who did use supplied air and still had blood level problems, and one had a transfusion. Just walking into the spray booth 2 hours later to check the finish, you're being dosed with iso's from the drying paint.

getting an iso dose also cross sensitizes you to other 2-part paints like epoxy and self etch- that's been documented by others in print- my reaction on Friday occurred after painting 3 door hinges and 2 mirrors and a hood scoop with epoxy primer outside with a mask on, then cleaning the gun with lacquer thinner, and looking at my car paint job in the garage- it had been 4 days since it was painted, and the slight fumes coming off it, along with using the epoxy, were enough to trigger that reaction in my system, and land me in the ER

no more iso's for me- I'm going back to straight lacquers and enamels. 2-part paints are just too much of a health hazard- I'm not the only one with this viewpoint, many older painters are doing the same thing, staying away from urethane and iso's. Once they hit 65 or 70, they quit painting altogether, because they just can't take it physically. It's not a healthy hobby, the fumes are dangerous. It's my health and I could give a crap what strangers on this site think. When I'm in the ER, where are you guys ? Who paid the $100 ER copay, and the $30 meds copay ? I did. Who had the pain ? I did.

my recommendation to any/all painters reading this is, don't use urethane, or any other 2-part paints with iso's, at all. I'll say it again, urethane is an IQ test, if you're using it, you flunked.

[dusty-ole-spraygun]

so how many of you "pro painters" actually know what urethane catalyst is made from ? The 2 most widely used catalysts are TDI and MDI- here's the ingredients- this is what you are loading into your spray gun, and turning into an aerosol, in an enclosed room while painting a car

the two most commonly used isocyanate catalysts for paint are:

toluene diisocyanate, (TDI) made from chlorine, toluene, phosgene, sulfuric acid, and nitric acid, all hazardous volatile organic compounds (VOCs)

The other is methylene diphenyl diisocyanate (MDI), made from formaldehyde, sulfuric acid, nitric acid, phosegene, and benzene.

chlorine- the same stuff as laundry bleach. Formaldehyde- i.e. bug spray. benzene- i.e. component of gasoline and fuel oil. sulfuric acid- the same stuff that eats the clear off your car, from acid rain- and comes out of smoke stacks burning coal;

using catalysts is creating a gas chamber. so ahead, keep using them- see where it gets you

are shiny paint jobs on cars worth liquifying your lungs, and ruining your nervous system ? In 10 years the paint job will be dull anyway.

[dusty-ole-spraygun]

something to think about, next time you load up that new gravity feed gun, and don your supplied air mask...or God forbid charcoal mask (good luck)- because you're spraying acid fumes from your gun

http://www.orbichem.com/gen/z_sys_Products.aspx?productid=86

"The main isocyanates are the aromatic products toluene diisocyanate (TDI) and methylene diphenyl diisocyanate (MDI). Both products undergo a series of complex manufacturing stages: the starting point for TDI is Toluene and nitric acid, which thereafter undergoes phosgenation (COCl2) reactions as well as distillation to arrive at the final range of TDI isomers. MDI starts with benzene and nitric acid, and via aniline and Formaldehyde reactions is also subsequently phosgenated to the final mix of isomers, which are distilled to the desired series of end-products. Both products are used in the polyurethane chemistry by reaction with polyols, to produce a wide range of flexible and rigid foams, and elastomers, adhesives and coatings. Global capacity for TDI in 2004 is some 2.2 million tpa, and for MDI is over 3 million tpa, with significant expansions planned for both products notably in Asia. In both cases the processes generate significant quantities of Hydrochloric Acid, which must find a commercially viable outlet as part of the overall production economics."

[Jeffw5555]

Dusty,

Please stop your childish rants. You know absolutely nothing about what you are ranting about. You had a reaction to SOLVENT, not isos. This is proved by you admitting that you had a recurrence of your problems when you painted stuff containing no isos.

I will say it again; isos do not cause dizziness or light-headedness. Solvents do. The isos that are used in paints chiefly cause asthma.

Besides your incorrect info about isos, I also question your ability to judge how paint looks and weathers. You should stop painting, period. The fact is, urethane beats ordinary acrylic enamels and lacquers in almost every way. The only drawback to urethane is it looks a bit "orange peel/wavy" compared to lacquer. Repairability and durability of urethane cannot be beat. It does not "dull" like you stated; it hold up better than anything else.

Len; I agree with the previous poster. Dusty has accumulated a "senior" rating which could mislead newbies coming to the forum. Is there a way you can "demote" him to newbie to keep him from misleading new readers?

Jeff

[Len]

Dusty
You're taking up a lot of bandwidth with your meaningless dribble. It appears, by the length of your posts, that the only thing that you really know is how to type.

Charcoal canister masks work on paints with isos it's just that they are less protection than a supplied air system. Most inexpensive "brand name" canister masks (under $20) are probably good for about 8 hours and if they are used properly and fit well they WILL protect you during that time. Most of the problems with these types of masks come when they are used beyond their limited lifespan or the leak which is not unusual.

Most of the people who post here know a lot more about the auto body repair and painting process than you so you should try learning rather than putting out information that shows how little you really know. And now that you have become ill from your mistakes don't take it out on the rest of us. Get yourself a decent supplied air system if you think that was your problem but don't presume you are an expert and know all the facts because of your illness. It obviously didn't make you that much smarter.

[daminc]

I havn't logged in all weekend, but 70 posts on getting sick from painting?
The problem was pretty much solved in the first 10 posts, but you feel the need to drag out every thread you start for some reason.
Did you ever think that mabe you were getting sick before you painted?

IMO, you need to move on and stop "analizing" everything to death. (yes, I meant to spell it that way)

[Steve g]

something to think about, next time you load up that new gravity feed gun, and don your supplied air mask...or God forbid charcoal mask (good luck)- because you're spraying acid fumes from your gun

http://www.orbichem.com/gen/z_sys_Products.aspx?productid=86

"The main isocyanates are the aromatic products toluene diisocyanate (TDI) and methylene diphenyl diisocyanate (MDI). Both products undergo a series of complex manufacturing stages: the starting point for TDI is Toluene and nitric acid, which thereafter undergoes phosgenation (COCl2) reactions as well as distillation to arrive at the final range of TDI isomers. MDI starts with benzene and nitric acid, and via aniline and Formaldehyde reactions is also subsequently phosgenated to the final mix of isomers, which are distilled to the desired series of end-products. Both products are used in the polyurethane chemistry by reaction with polyols, to produce a wide range of flexible and rigid foams, and elastomers, adhesives and coatings. Global capacity for TDI in 2004 is some 2.2 million tpa, and for MDI is over 3 million tpa, with significant expansions planned for both products notably in Asia. In both cases the processes generate significant quantities of Hydrochloric Acid, which must find a commercially viable outlet as part of the overall production economics."

New readers note:
A search of the forum will show that the quoted contributor's contributions have been proven to be inaccurate and misleading many more times than than they've shown themselves beneficial.

FOLLOW IT AT YOUR OWN PERIL

Steve g

[alaskajeff]

Dusty,


Len; I agree with the previous poster. Dusty has accumulated a "senior" rating which could mislead newbies coming to the forum. Is there a way you can "demote" him to newbie to keep him from misleading new readers?

Jeff

How about a new rating- "class clown member". Sorry if that's a nasty shot, but my previous post that Dusty was amusing has been replaced by my present outrage that he thinks an industry should be regulated because of his current (unfortunate) situation. Dusty's crusade against urethane paints and their sale to anyone he doesn't think can handle them safely makes me want to vomit.

Dusty, if you have an opinion you feel you need to pass on, express it. Please make sure you are not representing your opinion as a fact (if you have the capacity to distinguish between the two). If your opinion is based on experience, give us the background on that experience. But do not tell people what to do. Equating Nazi technology to painting is simply absurd. The Nazis ate bread, too. Let's pass a national ban on bread.

Life is about risk management. This forum has posted many, many threads on safety, especially regarding isos. Assuming your current situation is from isos, reading a few of those posts might have prevented your health problems.

Thanks to Steve G for putting the disclaimer after Dusty's posts. I am ignorant in the ways of the internet, but is there a way to make that automatic?

[mkdd]

Dusty your a real character mate,

Here is my view,

A proper fitting tradesman quality charcoal canister mask in a professionally designed downdraught spray booth equals proper protection.

As above but painting 2k outside in the open air non residential area would be safe in my book.

As above but spraying iso paint in your garage would be stupid yes it will offer some protection, but people who care about there own safety or the safety of other people living around them should not do it.

I have had used charcoal canister masks for a long time and i will explain my experience with them.

I have had my large single canister silicon sunstrom mask lying around for days even weeks before i sealed it on and off for years, and i could not smell the product i was using after years of service.

I have used the same organic vapour charcoal canister for years and only just recently could smell the product i was using so i simply inserted one freshly foil packed and vacumm sealed that was dated 2004 and again i am getting full protection that from a canister that had a use by date 2004.

These charcoal cannisters are very hardy (I cant vouch for every type of mask but it would be safe to say they are all the same if the product is tradesman quality)and can last for years but because of dangerous chemicals everyone recommends to not use one if more than a few hours old etc and rightly so.

But real world experience is in a garage full of acrylic laquer plume of fumes breathing behind a 3 year old out of date left out in the open on and off charcoal canister mask and i could not smell a thing, while later touching up small primer surfacer repairs quicky with a pressure pack,the smell nearly knocks me out and i am a big tough guy supposedly at 6-4 227lbs and into combat sports.

So in the end there is no machoness about dangerous chemicals, as i think someone mentioned that some people don't get effected as some other people,i beg to differ as it is slowly in your case or quickly in some other persons case doing some permanent damage over a period of time.

Oh yeh dusty i don't know whether you were serious about bagging the datsun 71 Z, mate they were a great car i think chosen by the people in the know in the great old (u s of a) as one of the top best 100 cars ever to be built and they had plenty of power to weight compared to anything built back in the late 60's early 70's engine design that dated back to mercedes benz etc shame on you mate all the reading:reading: and research you seem to muster up:)

my 3 cents (it was 2 but had to raise it due to inflation)

take it easy
and always use overkill protection as your health is worth every penny

[Phil V]

This is not for Dusty (it would be a waste of my time to post to him) but I'm posting for the newby readers on this site who are confused by Dusty's rantings. The following is a direct quote from www.osha-slc.gov

Quote " NIOSH recommends air supplied respirators where there is a potential for exposure to isocyanates. However, if air purifying respirators are used, there are a few items which should be noted. First, there are no NIOSH approved air purifying respirators for isocyanates primarily because isocyanates have no odor warning properties. STUDIES HAVE SHOWN THAT COMBINATION DUST/MIST AND ORGANIC CARTRIDEGES EFFECTIVELY STOP ISOCYANATES AND THAT THE VARIOUS SOLVENTS WILL BREAK THROUGH LONG BEFORE ANY ISOCYANATE. Therefore, the odor property of N-butyl acetate could be used to determine when respirators need to be replaced. Eye and skin protection should be provided during spray painting" (end quote).


What that means is DUAL CANNISTER PAINTERS MASKS ARE EFFECTIVE IN STOPPING ISOCYANATES WHEN USED PROPERLY.

[casey]

Another note to the newbies to indicate that Dusty doesn't know his earlobes from his eyelids.

In post after miserable post he advocates using old school conventional siphon feed guns such as the Sharp 775 and DeV JGA 503 because they can pour on the paint and HVLP is only about the enviroment and money anyway :rolleyes: Nevermind that they generate at least DOUBLE the airborne overspray of a good HVLP or Compliant gun.

Now he says he sprayed OUTSIDE with one of his old classics while wearing a charcoal mask (albeit wornout) and claims it made him sick, good God what would have happened to him if he had followed his "Old" spray gun doctrine and sprayed in a poorly vented garage ! Thats what he was telling you to do !

Now here are some facts that I can back up with OSHA documentation if needed, Isocyanates of the type used in Urethane paints are most dangerous in AEROSOL form, Unless there are some brands that came out after the tests I have read there are no Iso's in the paint itself , the Iso's are strictly in the hardener, that means that when the hardener comes out the mask should go on! And lastly a charcoal mask WILL protect you against Isocyanates, in the tests I have seen the 3m 6001 cartridges with 5010 PREFILTERS were considered 99.96% effective up to 1440 minutes (24hrs), the only other cartridge approved to this level was the AO R51HE with internal prefilter, This means you need to choose your respirator carefully , the AO R51a which is the same cartridge without the internal prefilter allowed a 10% breakthrough at 23 MINUTES.


Respirator safety is something all of us who spray paints should be extremely concerned with, repeated exposure to MDI and TDI isocyanates is CUMULATIVE , which means that each exposure can cause added sensitivity and severe occupational athsma after 1 or 1000 exposures depending on the person. Do you win the lottery often ?

By far the best way to protect yourself is with a supplied air breathing system(Hobbyair as sold Here (http://autobodystore.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=HP) ) , it's almost foolproof all you have to do is make sure you set the pump where it cannot intake any vapors and keep the mask or hood on , cover exposed skin and you're good to go even if your garage doesn't have the best ventilation.

If you are going to use a charcoal mask you have to commit to keeping your mask fresh and trying to ventilate your painting area as well as possible, ventilation reduces the concentration of airborne overspray, which reduces the danger of clogging your prefilters prematurely leading to breakthrough around the mask because you can't draw enough air through the filters. If you have enough airborne to clog your filters that means that the Iso concentration is high as well , so when you have a breakthrough you are breathing the worst possible air !

If you are using charcoal there is also the factor of fit of the mask , 3M and pretty much everone else makes 3 different sizes , you may have to try 2 of these too find which one fits best. Don't be cheap , a great paintjob is hardly worth a lifetime of athsma! Oh and don't forget to shave !

Then you have to think about degradation of the rubber facepiece , the type of rubber these masks are made of degrades slowly in contact with atmospheric contaminents, becoming harder and less pliable, in my opinion they should be pitched once a year based on the facepiece alone , which makes a great case for the 3M disposable units, in most cases for what you would pay for a set of filters and prefilters you can have a brand spanking new mask with filters every time !

3M masks here at Autobodystore (http://autobodystore.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=3OP)

So in review , use a good mask , keep it fresh , keep it in the bag when not in use , when you are finished in the painting room walk into the fresh air with your mask on , then remove it and wave it around in fresh air to clear it ,then in the ziplock bag. Keep track of your exposure time , 24 hours "in the paint" and the filters/ cartridges are trash (less if you don't have a good fan), or the whole mask is trash if using the 3M disposable. If you haven't done so in the last year replace the mask anyway based on the age of the facepiece. Make a real effort to work on ventilation , yes one paintjob CAN affect your health for the rest of your life if your sloppy !

I use the large disposable 3M myself and keep a box of prefilters around to change out about every 8 hours , you have to be careful changing prefilters on this mask because the filter holders were not designed to be removed. Do NOT try to disassemble the mask any further as it may compromise the effectiveness , pitch it ! your health is worth $20 isn't it ?

I guess Dusty may have some value as his dis-information got me to type all this!

I'd also like to add that while Isocyanates are dangerous and should make us keep on our toes ,YOU can protect yourself and spray your car safely by doing some research , being vigilant and NOT being a cheapskate when it comes to your safety.

Ray

[dusty-ole-spraygun]

one of the chemicals in the urethane paint catalysts is "phosgene"- it sounds kind of harmless compared to the other chemicals listed in the ingredients, i.e. nitric acid, sulfuric acid, chlorine, right ?

well check out just how nasty "phosgene" really is- workers who use it in industry must wear test strips and monitors, and have alarm systems, to tell them when levels are too high

knowing this, who wants to spray this paint with charcoal masks, or even have it stored in their garage ? It's like painting with toxic radioactive waste

urethane catalysts containing phosgene rank right up there with uranium exposure. I hate to say this, but the auto paint industry is terribly short on safety in respect to these urethane paints- they should not even be able to sell this stuff, it's deadly- let alone mail order it to your house- and phosgene is just ONE of the chemicals in the urethane catalyst- this website gives detailed information

http://www.inchem.org/documents/hsg/hsg/hsg106.htm

quote on phosgene:

"Symptomatic therapy may become necessary, and patients should be
followed and surveyed until pulmonary function has normalized and the
patient fully recovered. Depending upon the exposure concentration
and time, full recovery can take several months.

4.1.2 Health surveillance advice

Workers having the potential for exposure to phosgene should be
supplied with personal monitors. Workplace controls should be
initiated to lower the levels of phosgene to levels not detectable by
paper strip monitors (about 0.4 to 0.5 mg/m3). Preferably,
monitoring devices must sound an alarm or otherwise warn workers when
a concentration of 0.8 mg/m3 is reached.

Preplacement and periodic medical examinations should be given to
all workers with the potential to be exposed to phosgene. These
should include chest radiographs and pulmonary function tests."

[Len]

one of the chemicals in the urethane paint catalysts is "phosgene"- it sounds kind of harmless compared to the other chemicals listed in the ingredients, i.e. nitric acid, sulfuric acid, chlorine, right ?


What paint products (do you think) have phosgene in them? I looked at the MSDS sheets for several products and didn't see that mentioned. I would think that if it was part of any products it would be on the sheet. In fact I haven't seen any of the other chemicals you mention either. Is this just more Dusty misinformation?

[Jeffw5555]

Len, I just read the latest posts, and when I saw Dusty's "demotion" from Senior member to "I post like I know something....", I about choked on my breakfast cereal because I was laughing so hard......

Once again, thank you, Len for making this forum both an invaluable learning resource, AND a good source of entertainment once and a while.....you have a great sense of humor!

Jeff

[dusty-ole-spraygun]

Jeff, you're such a kidder, now we know that's just not true- everyone on this group knows, a cold shower and bowl of Wheaties would probably stop your little heart completely.

But thanks for pointing that out- some inscupulous moderator must have violated my right to privacy and hacked into my personal profile- that's actually against federal law.

I'll have to report it right now, to the online cyber crime unit- because who knows what other personal information they stold from my profile.


http://www.fbi.gov/cyberinvest/cyberhome.htm

they even have a special form for it, "computer intrusions"


http://www.fbi.gov/cyberinvest/computer_intrusions.htm

he who laughs last, laughs best...


https://tips.fbi.gov/


I'll also report it to the the local police in the town where Len lives- you know how widespread this identity theft it anymore, someone must have hacked into my account here.

Shamong Twp Police Dept
1722 Route 206
Southampton, NJ 08088

[dusty-ole-spraygun]

I already got a personal reply from an agent- we'll get to the bottom of this


THIS IS NOT AN AUTOMATED RESPONSE

Thank you for your submission to the FBI Internet Tip Line concerning a possible compromise of your computer.

We suggest that you check the CERT web site at www.cert.org for additional information concerning computer intrusions. CERT is the Computer Emergency Response Team located at the Software Engineering Institute (SEI) at Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh, PA. CERT is a center for Internet security excellence and they publish information concerning current cyber security topics, as well as maintain a knowledge database of attack techniques and solutions to prevent the attacks. The FBI works closely with CERT and you can also report your incident to CERT through their web site.

For your information, the Internet Tip Line (ITL) was created on 9/11/01, in response to the terrorist attacks upon America. We quickly established a mechanism for the public to submit information to the FBI via the Internet, and we have thus far received over 2,000,000 tips from around the globe. Professional Support personnel and Special Agents review tips within minutes after they are received and set leads to FBI Field Offices or Legal Attaché offices, as appropriate.

We encourage you tell your family, friends, and co-workers about this service, and we hope that you will continue to utilize it to submit information that may be of interest to the FBI. Again, thank you for taking the time to forward this report to us.

IMPORTANT - NOTE THE FOLLOWING:

The FBI does not maintain an email address to submit information or attachments to directly; therefore, please do not reply directly to this message via your email client. The FBI maintains an automated system that is designed to track all information received, to ensure that all tips are addressed in a timely and efficient manner. Therefore, please visit the FBI.GOV Web site again should you have occasion to submit additional information. We WILL NOT open or respond to “reply” email.

[Steve g]

I already got a personal reply from an agent- we'll get to the bottom of this


THIS IS NOT AN AUTOMATED RESPONSE

Thank you for your submission to the FBI Internet Tip Line concerning a possible compromise of your computer.

We suggest that you check the CERT web site at www.cert.org (http://www.cert.org) for additional information concerning computer intrusions. CERT is the Computer Emergency Response Team located at the Software Engineering Institute (SEI) at Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh, PA. CERT is a center for Internet security excellence and they publish information concerning current cyber security topics, as well as maintain a knowledge database of attack techniques and solutions to prevent the attacks. The FBI works closely with CERT and you can also report your incident to CERT through their web site.

For your information, the Internet Tip Line (ITL) was created on 9/11/01, in response to the terrorist attacks upon America. We quickly established a mechanism for the public to submit information to the FBI via the Internet, and we have thus far received over 2,000,000 tips from around the globe. Professional Support personnel and Special Agents review tips within minutes after they are received and set leads to FBI Field Offices or Legal Attaché offices, as appropriate.

We encourage you tell your family, friends, and co-workers about this service, and we hope that you will continue to utilize it to submit information that may be of interest to the FBI. Again, thank you for taking the time to forward this report to us.

IMPORTANT - NOTE THE FOLLOWING:

The FBI does not maintain an email address to submit information or attachments to directly; therefore, please do not reply directly to this message via your email client. The FBI maintains an automated system that is designed to track all information received, to ensure that all tips are addressed in a timely and efficient manner. Therefore, please visit the FBI.GOV Web site again should you have occasion to submit additional information. We WILL NOT open or respond to “reply” email.

New readers note:
A search of the forum will show that the quoted contributor's contributions have been proven to be inaccurate and misleading many more times than than they've shown themselves beneficial.

FOLLOW IT AT YOUR OWN PERIL

Steve g

[Phil V]

Len -- don't you think dusty has wasted enough of our time and patience. He's now threatening you with legal action calling the FBI on you. The man is obviously mentally disturbed. Please put him out of all our misery.

[Steve g]

Len -- don't you think dusty has wasted enough of our time and patience. The man is obviously mentally disturbed. Please put him out of all our misery.

Phil,
I hear ya. This dipshit is turning a a hospitable, friendly and informative forum into a circus. If we can't turn him off I would suggest to everyone that we ignore his posts. I will continue to post the warnings for the benefit of those that haven't read, or haven't the stomach to go back and read, his mindless ramblings. Beyond that, let's pretend he's not here. Clearly his posts are some sick attempt to bring some response and interaction into an otherwise empty life. Hopefully this pathetic attention starved waste fo space will tire of being ignored and move on.
Steve g

[dusty-ole-spraygun]

Phil,
I hear ya. This dipshit is turning a a hospitable, friendly and informative forum into a circus. If we can't turn him off I would suggest to everyone that we ignore his posts. I will continue to post the warnings for the benefit of those that haven't read, or haven't the stomach to go back and read, his mindless ramblings. Beyond that, let's pretend he's not here. Clearly his posts are some sick attempt to bring some response and interaction into an otherwise empty life. Hopefully this pathetic attention starved waste fo space will tire of being ignored and move on.
Steve g


Steve, you sound like a chiwowow already. Noisy, irritating bark, but no bite- no facts to back up your statements, only emotion and personal attacks.

where's your facts ? if iso's are so safe, then go out, close the garage door, and paint a car using urethane with no protection whatsoever- and report back that you're fine

[Phil V]

Quote " NIOSH recommends air supplied respirators where there is a potential for exposure to isocyanates. However, if air purifying respirators are used, there are a few items which should be noted. First, there are no NIOSH approved air purifying respirators for isocyanates primarily because isocyanates have no odor warning properties. STUDIES HAVE SHOWN THAT COMBINATION DUST/MIST AND ORGANIC CARTRIDGES EFFECTIVELY STOP ISOCYANATES AND THAT THE VARIOUS SOLVENTS WILL BREAK THROUGH LONG BEFORE ANY ISOCYANATE. Therefore, the odor property of N-butyl acetate could be used to determine when respirators need to be replaced. Eye and skin protection should be provided during spray painting" (end quote).

[Len]

Ok guys, Dusty is no longer with us.

[alaskajeff]

Ok guys, Dusty is no longer with us.
I hate to drag this thread out any further but... Thanks.:)

[MARTINSR]

Soooooo, last night I sit thru four hours of ICAR training at a Hazardous Materials, Personal Safety and Refinish safety class.

A good amount of that four hours was spent on proper fitting, care, and use of charcoal respirators. :)

This clase comes with complete blessing of OSHA, NIP, NIOSH and other agencys. This class is taught to owners, telling them what the LAW says about protecting their employees.

I have went to MANY of these classes, I don't look forward to going to one more. But damn it, every time I do, I learn something.

Brian

[Chris L]

Soooooo, last night I sit thru four hours of ICAR training at a Hazardous Materials, Personal Safety and Refinish safety class.

A good amount of that four hours was spent on proper fitting, care, and use of charcoal respirators.

This clase comes with complete blessing of OSHA, NIP, NIOSH and other agencys. This class is taught to owners, telling them what the LAW says about protecting their employees.

I have went to MANY of these classes, I don't look forward to going to one more. But damn it, every time I do, I learn something.

Brian
Brian,been eating dill pickle pizza again?lol

[MARTINSR]

Brian,been eating dill pickle pizza again?lol

LOL, Chris, last night was not one of my better eating experiances. I left right from work car pulling with a gal from the office. My dinner was Chex mix from my lunch pail, a banana, then two donuts at the class and the worse friggin coffee I have ever had in my life! I know that ground pencil lead in water couldn't taste as bad as this crap!

So, no, havn't had that dill pickle pizza lately, but maybe for lunch Friday, damn it, I deserve a little treat.

Brian

[Zippy]

Hi - this is my first post on here from my little garage in the UK and I'm already being controversial. First let me say it seems you've already just recently got rid of a dipstick and I'm not about to be the replacement, so relax, but I am worried about this isocyanate problem.

I appreciate the NIOSH quote above, and someone told me the full head respirator made by 3M with particulate and organic solvent filters was iso-safe, but I want to post a reply I got from them today:

Carl,We have never manufactured any filtering device capable ofremoving isocyanates. The only safe way to deal with this family ofchemicals is to use an airfed respirator such as a 3M Visionair 500HV.
Details are available on our website www.3m.com/uk/ohes
Regards, Peter Hilton, Senior Helpdesk Specialist, 3M Health & Safety Helpline, Occupational Health & Environmental Safety. registered address: 3M Centre, Cain Road, Bracknell, Berkshire, RG12 8HTRegistered in England No. 1123045

I'm not trying to replace ole Dusty, but while I wish I could feel safe working in a charcoal respirator, something just doesnt sit right.

Do any of you guys know if I can get a USA supplier to ship a Hobbyair across to the UK at reasonable cost? The 3M 6000 is not much cheaper than the Hobbyair from the prices I have seen, but takes all the risk away as it brings in breathable air from outside the work area. I want one!!:pray:

[MARTINSR]

Hi - this is my first post on here from my little garage in the UK and I'm already being controversial. First let me say it seems you've already just recently got rid of a dipstick and I'm not about to be the replacement, so relax, but I am worried about this isocyanate problem.



LOLOL, thanks for the good laugh!

Hey, you want a Hobbyair, I would bet Len, the owner of this site will ship you one without a problem!

Brian

[e-tek]

WOW - I was away for a while, but can't believe how much I missed!!!

Honestly, this post was better than "Dallas" and "One Life To Live" put together. The real question now is: Who shot Dusty?? :rolleyes:

I'm not sure what was funnier though - how much Dusty pulled your chains or seeing that each time he'd get you to answer!! ;)

Anyways, it was entertianing while it lasted...now it's back to reality....:(

[Zippy]

Hey, you want a Hobbyair, I would bet Len, the owner of this site will ship you one without a problem!

Yes pleeeez:pray:
What do you say Len? Its Christmas soon and maybe you guys would like to have a whip round and buy one for a newbie across the pond.

There are two UK suppliers I found, but they are both out of stock and unlikely to restock while the £ is so low.

Hey - why is NIOSH ok with respirators when properly used (see above), but won't approve the Hobbyair? - one of the UK suppliers describe the Hobbyair as supplying breathable air where NIOSH approval is not required. :rottentom OK, OK I'm going .....

[alaskajeff]

Yes pleeeez:pray:
What do you say Len? Its Christmas soon and maybe you guys would like to have a whip round and buy one for a newbie across the pond.

There are two UK suppliers I found, but they are both out of stock and unlikely to restock while the £ is so low.

Hey - why is NIOSH ok with respirators when properly used (see above), but won't approve the Hobbyair? - one of the UK suppliers describe the Hobbyair as supplying breathable air where NIOSH approval is not required. :rottentom OK, OK I'm going .....
I don't think it's so much that NIOSH won't approve the Hobbyair system so much as Hobbyair has not felt the need to go through the process of becoming NIOSH approved. To get a product approved by a regulating agency takes an active effort (which could be expensive and time consuming) by the manufacturer.

[Len]

I don't think it's so much that NIOSH won't approve the Hobbyair system so much as Hobbyair has not felt the need to go through the process of becoming NIOSH approved. To get a product approved by a regulating agency takes an active effort (which could be expensive and time consuming) by the manufacturer.

The Hobbyair does have a NIOSH approved version called the Pro Air, it's exactly the same as the Hobbyair (except the box is a different color) but it's sent for approval and has papers to show it's approved however this approval almost doubles the price. You need this approval in the states when you have employees that use your system.

I don't have any trouble shipping to the UK, I've done it many times but YOU still have to pay the freight. We have a 220V version especially for European users that's approximately the same price as the 110V models used in the US.

[Zippy]

Hi Len - Hello everyone.

Len - your offer to ship a Hobbyair over to UK sounds good to me as it seems local suppliers are reluctant at present to restock. I am in no rush as we are into the colder months now and any spray work I have can wait until late spring.

I would need the 220V version as you say and I understand this comes with a "blow out valve" as the air pressure is enough to run two masks or needs to blow out the excess.

Let me say I am pretty sure a high end charcoal mask would be just as suitable for my needs but when I wheighed up the extra costs of filter replacements, I considered the prices were about the same, but with air fed you know you are safe.

I did read about a guy who complained about feeling unwell with a Hobbyair, until someone pointed out you are supposed to leave the turbine end outside the booth! Doh!:zzz:

Len - I'm definitely interested in purchasing a Hobbyair and would like to discuss how we can do this here. For example, as I am in no rush, would it be cheaper to go by rail/sea rather than air as I can wait until spring. You have my msn address if we need to discuss terms off-forum.

[Len]

The need for the "Y" connector and valve depends on which model you want. We ship these parts for people purchasing the Hobbyair 2 so they can lower the amount of air coming through the hose and use 40 feet of hose instead of the full 80 feet that comes with the system.

I'll calculate the different costs of shipping to the UK on Monday and let you know your options. The manufacturer usually runs a "special" from late November until then end of December so it would probably pay to place your order during that period. This special usually covers free shipping for units being delivered in the continental US but it may lower the shipping cost to you as well.

[rigidude]

Am I the only one who'll miss "dusty ole spraygun "s posts ? I thought he raised plenty of valid questions that need some addressin. And I agree with a majority of them. He was interesting at least.

...I think he was saying, in a nutshell, that government parenting could be or is actually hazardous to your health ! His case in point - these iso's that government forces on the paint industry is the government's fault and not the industry's and all anyone can do in the industry is go along with the stupidity of it and that eventually will lead us to a crock of lies, corruption and health issues that were never there to begin with. Thanks !

Congress too often jumps on the bandwagon of "cause of the week" do-goodyness with hardly any thought to the consequences of their new rules and regulations. And my case in point - this newest law that says by 2010 nobody, GE specifically , will produce and sell here the old faithful incandescent lightbulb !..so instead, what you get is a warm , fuzzy feeling that you are also doing some global goodyness in the name of mercury poisoning your own home or burning down your own house because the new lightbulb industry forgot to tell you the fire hazards of the new-fangled earth friendly squirley shaped flourescent is 10 times more likely to explode and catch on fire ( I know, I've used them years before the bimbo actress suggested to our willing congress they enforce a new law - they die a slow painfull life and sizzle and spark before they expire )than the old standard pretty much 'cant be improved' incandescent...Well they dont have to ! Because they're now on the honor roll of do-goodyness set by our congress/hollywood elite geniuses .....oh , let us celebrate our politicians and actors with an engraved plaque and gold star ! they affect real change ! they are sooo perfected ! at your expense !..... oh man, where am I going with this.......... anyway....LACQUER RULES !

[Len]

Actually the "government" didn't force isos on us they restricted the use of Volatile Organic Compounds that do much more damage to the environment. As a result the US paint industry went with products that were being used for quite some time in Europe which contained more isos but less VOCs. The result was paint products that do less damage to the environment, last longer, repair more easily but are more dangerous to breath when they are being sprayed.

[rigidude]

Actually the "government" didn't force isos on us they restricted the use of Volatile Organic Compounds that do much more damage to the environment. As a result the US paint industry went with products that were being used for quite some time in Europe which contained more isos but less VOCs. The result was paint products that do less damage to the environment, last longer, repair more easily but are more dangerous to breath when they are being sprayed.

that was sorta my point - the industry has to come up with something good or bad to please "them"....then we get it put to us. I dont trust either.

It's also possible that industry can manipulate the dupes in congress and the masses to make them beleive these things are real and a threat. And because it was the industry's intent to sell a more cheaply manufactured product, they had congress do it for them....all I know is that iso's do make me feel like shit after I spray them.

[Phil V]

Quote from rigidudes post "....all I know is that iso's do make me feel like shit after I spray them." (end quote).

If you feel like shit after spraying iso hardened paint then it leads us to only one inescapable conclusion -- YOU ARE NOT USING PROPER LUNG PROTECTION.

If you ARE using proper lung protection then feeling "shitty" after painting is psychosomatic.

[Len]

Quote from rigidudes post "....all I know is that iso's do make me feel like shit after I spray them." (end quote).

If you feel like shit after spraying iso hardened paint then it leads us to only one inescapable conclusion -- YOU ARE NOT USING PROPER LUNG PROTECTION.

If you ARE using proper lung protection then feeling "shitty" after painting is psychosomatic.

Phil, you crack me up.

[Serge]

I see that sweet smell weekly...and some production painters see it daily for years...My old body man had been shooting that stuff for years...he was still shooting it in his 70s...he had been doing it all his life...and not always with the right protection...I would sometimes throw him a mask in the paint booth when he was doing basecoat on a spot...ya know what I mean...

Darn...sure you see some guys who became sensitized to it, and some of them bad...but unless you have this pre-disposition allergic reaction to it all will probably be fiine...

I say this work is fun, and to appreciate it and do a good job one must be able to relax and enjoy...

[Zippy]

Serge - I kind of agree with you. There were guys in the UK on another forum telling me to build massive compressor generated air systems with rigid blue piping systems connected to an air fed mask with coalescing filters etc etc or just not risk spraying at all.

Then I came across the Hobbyair systems and the possibility has opened up for me to relax and enjoy this art, develop the skill, but also enjoy the confidence of knowing I am safeguarding my health. Not being paranoid, but why take risks when the safeguards are affordable?

I just gotta find a way to ship one of those droids over from the US to the UK! :scratchch

[Clarkey]

oh yeah, and gonna use some waterborne clear coat too are you? Jeez, waterborne base has been in use by OEM's for years now.
We heard the same old stories about 2k being banned and you know what, every shop still uses it. Heck cellulose was supposed to be banned outright last year but you can still go into any paint store and buy as much as you want.

[Zippy]

Perhaps someone further down the road can enlighten us, but I thought water-borne paints contained more and higher levels of VOCs than ordinary 2K? Some water-bornes have been pulled back off the shelves because of this. Definitely not safer just because they are water based. Another problem for the DIYer is the curing, which is by heat for water paints.

About respirators – I came across what is supposed to be an iso-safe respirator, details below:

Isocyanate safe respirator, for use with 2k car paints. (ALP 9000E)
This respirator conforms to A1, B1 and P2. EN 405:1992 standards .
The certificate number is 980434 and was issued by SGS Yarsley (the testers)

Reply sent by the testers:

The certificate was issued 10 years ago but the certificate is still valid. The product does use replaceable filter pads for solid and liquid based aerosols. Any advice on the usage must be obtained from the manufacturer.

The manufacturer is Gerson, I believe based in USA. Anyone have any further info on this?

[Clarkey]

I'm using a Gerson I got from Nu-agane, touted as being 2k safe not sure how true that is though considering every other charcoal specifically says it isn't. Seems ok though, have sprayed iso's using it and i'm not dead yet.

[Phil V]

Clarkey, you posted " touted as being 2k safe not sure how true that is though considering every other charcoal specifically says it isn't." (end quote).


That not true, dual charcoal painters masks do NOT say that they aren't safe for spraying iso paints. THEY ARE SAFE TO SPRAY ISO BASED PAINTS when they are properly used. But they recommend fresh air systems for spraying iso based paints because we live in a litigation happy society and the dual cannister painters masks are NOT IDIOT PROOF. So the main reason dual cannister painters masks are not recommended for spraying iso based paints is because the mask companies are covering their asses from law suits brought about by people who intentionally or unintentionally misuse those masks.

[Zippy]

Clarkey - this may be interest, from the manufacturer, Gerson:

The respirator is approved by CE for A1B1 P2.
For painting an A1 P2 is used.
The approval for B1 is extra.

You can use this painting.
If you are using Isocyanates then you must have a change out schedule. The reason is because Isocyanates do not have an odor and the user would not know when the cartridge is used. Most paint shops wear the mask for 20 to 40 hours but it depends on the exposure and ventilation.
You should also wear eye and skin protection.

[cheesegrater]

the cheap charcoal filters last one day 8 hours from the time they are opened, or one hour in iso environment before they give up and are saturated ($30 mask)- the better charcoal filters last about one week at best from the time they are opened ($80 mask). the only way to spray iso's safetly is with a supplied air, and preferably a good spray booth to control overspray. there are cases of iso sensitization even with a supplied air mask without a spray booth controlling overspray. I've already sensed iso fumes coming through a brand new charcoal mask while just mixing the paint, charcoal filters really aren't adequate for iso paints. changing those filters all the time would pay for a supplied air system in a short time. don't risk your health get supplied air, or better yet, use a non-iso paint like straight enamel, or water based paints like AutoAir Paints.

[kevininohio]

the cheap charcoal filters last one day 8 hours from the time they are opened, or one hour in iso environment before they give up and are saturated ($30 mask)- the better charcoal filters last about one week at best from the time they are opened ($80 mask). the only way to spray iso's safetly is with a supplied air, and preferably a good spray booth to control overspray. there are cases of iso sensitization even with a supplied air mask without a spray booth controlling overspray. I've already sensed iso fumes coming through a brand new charcoal mask while just mixing the paint, charcoal filters really aren't adequate for iso paints. changing those filters all the time would pay for a supplied air system in a short time. don't risk your health get supplied air, or better yet, use a non-iso paint like straight enamel, or water based paints like AutoAir Paints.

Dusty,
How's your case against Len going? Have you gotten any more good form letters from government agencys? Quit wasting everyones time, No one here values your opinion or your existance.

[MARTINSR]

Quit wasting everyones time, No one here values your opinion or your existance.

That is DAMN Harsh and totally out of line!

The guy can't post here any longer, you got your wish, he is gone, lay off the guy would you!

Brian

[Len]

the cheap charcoal filters last one day 8 hours from the time they are opened, or one hour in iso environment before they give up and are saturated ($30 mask)- the better charcoal filters last about one week at best from the time they are opened ($80 mask). the only way to spray iso's safetly is with a supplied air, and preferably a good spray booth to control overspray. there are cases of iso sensitization even with a supplied air mask without a spray booth controlling overspray. I've already sensed iso fumes coming through a brand new charcoal mask while just mixing the paint, charcoal filters really aren't adequate for iso paints. changing those filters all the time would pay for a supplied air system in a short time. don't risk your health get supplied air, or better yet, use a non-iso paint like straight enamel, or water based paints like AutoAir Paints.

Most base coats are either solvent based or waterborne and don't contain isos. AutoAir bases are iso free waterborne but, just like any other base coats, they need to be clear coated with clear that contains isos. I've heard mixed reviews of their products but it's usually about lack of coverage and it could be the user and not the products.

[cheesegrater]

Most base coats are either solvent based or waterborne and don't contain isos. AutoAir bases are iso free waterborne but, just like any other base coats, they need to be clear coated with clear that contains isos. I've heard mixed reviews of their products but it's usually about lack of coverage and it could be the user and not the products.]


Len, you're mistaken there. AutoAir paints are true WATER-BASED paints, just like latex- as compared to water borne paints you mentioned. There's a difference, see it here towards end of article. And they are coming out with their own water based clear soon. Urethane is as antiquated as the model T car, and just as old. You can stick your head in the sand and ignore this technology, but soon you will have no choice- the entire industry is going water based in the very near future. You won't even be able to buy urethane anymore- that's why they're having fire sales now on urethane, for $90/gallon on Ebay. They don't want to get stuck with it.

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/113_0507_auto_air_colors_water_based_automotive_pa int/index.html

The Future of Automotive Paint is Water?
Water-based paints made by manufactures such as Auto Air Colors are very likely the future of automotive paint technology

By Glen Wilkinson
photographer: Glen Wilkinson

Auto Air Colors had this display set up in Nashville, TN for Day 4 of the HOT ROD Power Tour 2005.
On Day 4 of the HOT ROD Power Tour 2005 we ran across an interesting display tucked in a corner of the massive parking lot at the Gaylord Opryland Hotel in Nashville, TN. Auto Air Colors was putting on a painting exhibition that at first glance might look like just another guy with an air brush showing off his skills - but it was way more than that because the paint being used was water-based.

Auto Air Colors are water-based base coat paints intended for complete paint jobs and for graphic applications over existing finishes. The paints are similar to conventional urethane paint in that they are made with the exact same pigments, but the main difference is the binder and carrying agent utilized.

Artist Mickey Harris at work with Auto Air Colors water-based paints.
"Auto Air Colors," explains Craig Kennedy, V.P. of Sales and Marketing for Auto Air Colors, "is an acrylic resin which utilizes water to carry it to the substrate as opposed to urethane which uses solvent as acarrying agent. The difference being as Auto Air Colors cure, water vapor is released without emitting any volatile organic compounds (V.O.C.) as do urethanes." So, in other words, their paint is essentially non-toxic while urethane paints are.

The advantages to using Auto Air Colors are many. They are ready to use straight out of the bottle. Reducers, hardeners and other mixed products are not required. The paint may be simply put into the spray gun and applied. There are also no time windows to work under. Auto Air Colors bind through a mechanical process compared to urethane paint's chemical process. The result is a paint job free of time restrictions and limitations. Plus, the average car can be completely painted with two quarts compared to almost a gallon with urethane paints, which equals a cost savings.

"Auto Air Colors are also non-reactive," continues Kennedy, "and will not release trapped solvent into top coat layers allowing for multiple coats to be applied quickly without fear of 'solvent-pop', a symptom which occurs with urethane paint jobs when time windows are not followed. Additionally, due to the lack of solvent-release, Auto Air Colors paint jobs are quicker than urethane paint jobs in a controlled environment such a heated spray booth."

The use of a primer is not required for adhesion to the substrate. AutoAir Colors may be applied direct to metal, aluminum, fiberglass, urethane, plastic, and other common paint surfaces. A concept used by a few motorsport race teams for weight savings including Worsham Racing's CSK NHRA Nitro-Class Funny Car team. Being solvent-free, there is no pot-life to the paint. Paint left in the spray gun may be saved for a future paint job that is months if not years away without any loss of performance.

There is a real good chance water-based paints are going to be the future of automotive painting as the technology, ease-of-use, and non-toxic, environmentally friendly qualities are just too beneficial to be ignored. Paint manufactures are currently devoting much of their R&D into water-based paints. Fortunately, as Kennedy explains, the performance of water-based paint is already equal to urethane.

"As environmental concerns develop, water-borne (urethane paints derived of solvent which are reduced with water to lessen its V.O.C.) will giveway to water-based paints. The performance of the water-based paints is excellent and there is not a compromise in the finish. The future development of water-based will focus on the top clear-coat material and expended use of water-based in high-production environments."

Auto Air Colors has more than 200 colors and effects, all of which are intermixable for endless color creations. Colors include pearls, pearl-flakes, metal-flake, metallic colors, chameleons, chameleon-pearl flakes, candy colors, iridescent colors and more. Sizes available are 4oz., 16oz. 32oz. and 1 Gallon.For more on Auto Air Colors check out their web site at www.autoaircolors.com

[Len]

]


Len, you're mistaken there. AutoAir paints are true WATER-BASED paints, just like latex- as compared to water borne paints you mentioned. There's a difference, see it here towards end of article. And they are coming out with their own water based clear soon. Urethane is as antiquated as the model T car, and just as old. You can stick your head in the sand and ignore this technology, but soon you will have no choice- the entire industry is going water based in the very near future. You won't even be able to buy urethane anymore- that's why they're having fire sales now on urethane, for $90/gallon on Ebay. They don't want to get stuck with it.



Dusty
Have you EVER read anything about "water-based clear"? Why don't you copy and paste some facts about it, I'd be interested in your source of information.

[cheesegrater]

re-read my previous post- question- why do you ask, since you labelled my avatar header to say "disregard all I post" ? suddenly you want info from me...interesting

"The future development of water-based will focus on the top clear-coat material and expended use of water-based in high-production environments."

water based clear is in the experimental stage, and it's going to become a reality in the very near future

so who in their right mind would spray urethane BC/CC/SS, when they soon will be able to get water based clear- and not have to wear supplied air systems/suits anymore, and risk the iso hazard ?

the supplied air masks and HVLP/compliant guns will be antiquated and useless soon- no one will need them, with water based paints- a simple charcoal mask will do- water based is like spraying latex house paint- totally harmless

wake up, smell the coffee, Len you could not give me a gallon of urethane, supplied air mask and HVLP/compliant gun, for free- they are all a bad investment and outdated technology at this point- water based paint is the cutting edge now

you know what you can do with that equipment now ?

how do you like those apples ?;)

[All Dry]

Is Auto Aire?If any advancement is going to be made in water base it will be done by one of the big paint Mnfg's Like Dupont Or PPG They have the resources to do it,Cheesegrater it seems to me like you are trying to negatively influence Lens business and that is against the law.Mike

[All Dry]

Cheesegrater, You come off as trying to promote a product on the back of someone elses site, Nobody respects that .You appear desperate to sell some CRAP if Auto Aire was any good you wouldnt need to glam on to someone elses site to sell it,Mike

[Len]

Is Auto Aire?If any advancement is going to be made in water base it will be done by one of the big paint Mnfg's Like Dupont Or PPG They have the resources to do it,Cheesegrater it seems to me like you are trying to negatively influence Lens business and that is against the law.Mike

Mike
Cheesegrater is just Dusty with a different handle. He's just spreading more misinformation. He knows enough to talk unintelligently about this craft but really has no clue about how to use the technology properly. He's using old technology like enamel or lacquer with old conventional spraying equipment and when he's called on it he tries to do as much damage as possible. Notice he talks about water based clear like it's something to look forward to but in reality it's just a figment of his imagination.

[All Dry]

I am aware of his multiple ''Aliases'' I just wonder If he realizes that no-one gives him any credibility and he is winning no friends over with the imaginary nonsense he posts.Mike

[Zippy]

wake up, smell the coffee ... you could not give me a gallon of urethane, supplied air mask and HVLP/compliant gun, for free ... water based paint is the cutting edge now

Could I have a free gallon of urethane, supplied air and HVLP gun for free pleez? I would be happy to pay the shipping cost to my humble shed in the UK! :D

I would love water-based to be the cutting edge, so I could spray to my heart's content without having to suit up against VOCs and iso's, but at the moment my understanding is the water bourne clearcoats contain a longer list of solvents, in order to cause the paint to cure, than conventional 2K.

I don't believe water based will necessarily mean safe for humans to use without PPE. What is good for the environment may not mean good for the user, at least not initially. I would rather trust tried and tested 2K BC/CC until one of the paint giants really develop water based to a point where it is reliable and heatlth and safety tested.

Another thing - doesn't water based need to be baked to polymerise or cure? Where does this leave the weekend warrior in his/her home garage if this is the case?